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More MME's to Europe?

Jolteon

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Ford Mustang sales 70,000
Ford F-150 sales 800,000

Ford Total WW sales. 1.3M

Mustang and F150 represent close to 70% of Ford sales.

Ford Mustang EV 2021
Ford F-150 EV 2021

One could argue that based on sales, no mfg has been more ambitious than Ford in moving to EV's. If market demand for EV's goes up, Ford is already positioned to produce EV's for 70% of its sales.

Ford is also doing it with its current brands while VW created new brands, the ID series for EV, hedging its bets more than Ford who is betting the house on EV.
Where's the Mustang EV? Haven't even heard that announced.
So the F-150 is going 100% BEV for 2021? Why'd they just announce those 6 ICE engines then?

I really don't think you can point to the token F-150 BEV which we all know is going to be based on the existing fossil F-150 and therefore probably hugely compromised.
 

Jolteon

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Ford

Of the 40 electrified vehicles Ford plans for its global lineup by 2022, 16 will be fully electric and the rest will be plug-in hybrids, executives said.

“We’re all in on this and we’re taking our mainstream vehicles, our most iconic vehicles, and we’re electrifying them,” Ford told reporters. “If we want to be successful with electrification, we have to do it with vehicles that are already popular.”


GM
said last year it would add 20 new battery electric and fuel cell vehicles to its global lineup by 2023, financed by robust profits from traditional internal combustion engine vehicles in the United States and China.

Volkswagen Group
whose brands also include Porsche, Audi, Skoda, Bentley and Bugatti, will launch 75 electric cars mostly in the Euro market by 2029

You do know VW and ford are partnered also right?
So what you're saying then is that Ford has fewer BEVs coming than VW and GM, exactly as I said.

Ford partnered with VW to beg for the MEB platform because they couldn't figure out how to make European passenger car EVs by themselves on time.
 

Jolteon

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Well, I feel like its goodwill hunting season all over again.

The demand for EV sales in the united states is low. Well, not really low but super very low. Have to take what you want so much out of what everyone else wants and can afford.

Half of all BEV sales are in just the state of California.
50% of Americans make less than 30,000 a year.
80% of Americans buy used vehicles not new.
Weather in 38% of the united states is not adequate for a BEV owner.
20% of Americans live in apartments that have no access to charging at home.
22% of people buying tesla, are trading in and buying a tesla again. Not new customers.

Elon sees the writing on the wall. For tesla to survive he knows he has to get that 25,000 dollar car out quick. There are only so many people that make enough money to keep buying these high price BEV.
With more manufacturers getting involved that pie keeps getting cut short for tesla.
Tesla did the survey and it showed 45% of Telsa owners will look at purchasing the Mache when it comes out. Tesla no one else tesla did it. Say only 20% of the 45% follow through and buy a mache. That is a high loss for tesla.

The United States is not the same market where people drive very few miles or commute with people. Live in the same houses are parents. The same goes for the Asian market.


You can throw all the new BEV mumbo jumbo out there all you want. If people can't afford them then they can't afford them. With the battery cost so high to be replaced, the used car market can't afford to buy them.

All the wants you speak of yes sure they are nice. But at the end of the day the BEV range, price, 10-year ownership is not there. With gas prices under 2 dollars, the benefit for BEV or EV market has slowed. Your ownership of the EV market is your well off class and middle class. The middle class is struggling to keep their head afloat right now.

Like Elon musk said himself. Tell we have an Electic vehicle under 30,000 with 500 miles of range, the EV market will not exceed 10% of sales in the North American market.

Most of your BEV sales are sold as the COOL in things to buy. Something different. If Tesla cars only went 0 to 60 in 10 seconds and not fast speeds.......well you know. Why do you think he spelled out sexy? lol

So yes no need to rush in when tech and sales don't show what you think they show.
🤯


But sales in China have been flat all year, and sales in Europe are down. Given that the Shanghai plant increased Tesla’s annual production capacity by 40%, “selling another 27,000 cars isn’t stellar,” said Matthias Schmidt, publisher of the European Electric Car Report in Berlin.




Ads by Tesla
Tesla’s total annual capacity now is 690,000, yet analysts say it will sell well under 500,000 cars this year.

To hit the half-million mark, which Musk has identified as his deliveries target, Tesla must now deliver 180,000 cars in the upcoming fourth quarter.

That might not be an issue if growth were faster or the stock price were lower. But with a tiny fraction of worldwide sales, the stock market pegs Tesla as the world’s most valuable car company. Its market value of about $400 billion is bigger than Toyota, Ford, General Motors, Fiat Chrysler, Volkswagen and Honda — combined. The company is under tremendous pressure to show how it can grow into those expectations.

“Tesla is currently valued at 15 times sales,” said Gordon Johnson at the GLJ Research financial firm in an email. “Which means to give investors a 15-year payback, TSLA has pay them 100% of its 2020 revenues for 15 straight years, with zero expenses, no taxes paid, and no dividends. Yet, TSLA is losing share in the EU and China.” Johnson concluded, “In short, investors are in for a very rude awakening.”
This is such short sighted analysis, it's actually quite funny to me.

Can't sell what isn't available. I'm telling you, we're heading for an EV future by the end of the decade, Ford thinks maybe by the end of the century at the rate they're moving.

You're the one bringing Tesla into this, for the record, not me.

Ford is going to hit a wall after Mach-E, because they're not going to want to disrupt themselves. Mark my words. They will limit F-150 EV and Transit EV sales to the minimum so that they don't have to close engine plants. Rivian, Tesla, Arrival, etc. won't have that fear.

Continue thinking ICE is a part of the future, just like Kodak thought film was always a part of the future. Let's see where that gets Ford.
 

trutolife27

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This is such short sighted analysis, it's actually quite funny to me.

Can't sell what isn't available. I'm telling you, we're heading for an EV future by the end of the decade, Ford thinks maybe by the end of the century at the rate they're moving.

You're the one bringing Tesla into this, for the record, not me.

Ford is going to hit a wall after Mach-E, because they're not going to want to disrupt themselves. Mark my words. They will limit F-150 EV and Transit EV sales to the minimum so that they don't have to close engine plants. Rivian, Tesla, Arrival, etc. won't have that fear.

Continue thinking ICE is a part of the future, just like Kodak thought film was always a part of the future. Let's see where that gets Ford.
facts are facts. The reason tesla is brought into this is they are the EV market in North America.
You calling something short-sighted lol wow really. Anytime something is new there will be a rise to a peak. It's a wow factor. Once the peak is hit then the fall is quick.

You do know the deal ford has with rivian also right?

Depending on who wins the election also will decide how quickly the EV world moves here. Gas prices could fall another 30 cents.

The EV tech is not where it needs to be for 70% of America.
 

trutolife27

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So what you're saying then is that Ford has fewer BEVs coming than VW and GM, exactly as I said.

Ford partnered with VW to beg for the MEB platform because they couldn't figure out how to make European passenger car EVs by themselves on time.
16 BEV by 2022 is faster than 20 by 2023 and the 20 is not full bev but includes a fuel cell and hybrid.
so yes ford is faster and more. last time I checked 2022 comes before 2023? ✌

Of the 75 from VW only 10 full BEV will make it to the North America market by 2025.
So again yes ford is more.

VW is going to help ford with small sedan BEV cars soon, and Ford is going to help VW with vans and trucks BEV market in Europe. Contract already signed.
 

Jolteon

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facts are facts. The reason tesla is brought into this is they are the EV market in North America.
You calling something short-sighted lol wow really. Anytime something is new there will be a rise to a peak. It's a wow factor. Once the peak is hit then the fall is quick.

You do know the deal ford has with rivian also right?

Depending on who wins the election also will decide how quickly the EV world moves here. Gas prices could fall another 30 cents.

The EV tech is not where it needs to be for 70% of America.
Ford has an equity investment in Rivian, nothing more announced after the Lincoln program was publicly canceled.

Technology does not peak and then "the fall is quick" - technology adoption only increases. The fact that BEVs are already on their exponential growth has signed the death warrant for the ICE, regardless of politics.

I don't know anyone personally who is not looking at a BEV as their next vehicle, but some who are frustrated their preferred model isn't available as a BEV... yet.
 

Jolteon

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16 BEV by 2022 is faster than 20 by 2023 and the 20 is not full bev but includes a fuel cell and hybrid.
so yes ford is faster and more. last time I checked 2022 comes before 2023? ✌

Of the 75 from VW only 10 full BEV will make it to the North America market by 2025.
So again yes ford is more.

VW is going to help ford with small sedan BEV cars soon, and Ford is going to help VW with vans and trucks BEV market in Europe. Contract already signed.
Who is talking about just North America? There's more to the world than that. VW will sell more BEVs than Ford, that's not up for debate.

So right... Ford needed help from VW for MEB BEVs because they couldn't figure out how to get them to market fast enough on their own.
 

trutolife27

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Who is talking about just North America? There's more to the world than that. VW will sell more BEVs than Ford, that's not up for debate.

So right... Ford needed help from VW for MEB BEVs because they couldn't figure out how to get them to market fast enough on their own.
No, actually VW came to ford wanting the truck and van market. You can search for it on the internet you have access. VW hoped for a merger.
The car market is dead in North America.

North America is the market here, so yeah I'm talking it.
selling 100 cars in the 20,000 price market making 2,000 profit a car, is not the same with cost as selling a 50,000 vehicle for 10,000 profit a car. Cost cuts have to be extreme to get cost that low.
wages and health care have driven the cost of vehicles up and up. The Cadillac tax on health care from Obama care has cost vehicle manufacturing here.
 

LYTMCQ

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trutolife27

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Digital Trends. “Customers are buying electric cars for the distinct driving experience, the convenience of waking up fully charged each morning without ever visiting a gas station, and the desire to make a buying decision with a material environmental impact.” These customers would go electric even if gas was free, he adds. But that is only about 4% of the market.

Luxury is the key word here. The person spending nearly $80,000 on an E-Tron, or over $100,000 on a Porsche Taycan, could afford a tank of gas even if prices spiked to over $6 a gallon (which, by the way, is what many Europeans are paying). For them, going electric is a personal and an environmental choice, not a budget-led decision.

In 2019, an AAA survey found that while environmental concern motivated 74% of would-be EV buyers, 56% cited lower long-term costs as a reason to ditch gas. The problem is 64% of the North American market can't afford a new car over 40,000 and well over 89% worldwide.

Saving on fuel costs is still a component for many EV shoppers. It’s more of a consideration for some than others, but saying it’s a nonissue for all of them isn’t accurate,” Karl Brauer, the executive publisher of AutoTrader and Kelley Blue Book, said. This is especially true in California, where gas tends to be more expensive.


“The bigger issue remains the overall economic outlook,” Brauer says. “Every electric vehicle costs more than its non-EV equivalent, so buying one is always more expensive (with rare exceptions, like my $49-a-month lease on a Fiat 500e that just ended). When unemployment is up, and economic optimism is down, people spend less money. That’s going to impact car sales in general, and higher-cost cars specifically, which is bad news for relatively expensive EVs.” For example, Hyundai asks $20,300 for the gasoline-powered Kona and $37,190 for the electric model. The federal tax credit brings that figure down to about $30,000."but tax credits run out"

We’re not in Norway; the electric car is a niche product in America. Those who argue otherwise either have something to gain from it, are blind, or are overly optimistic. They’ll reach the mainstream eventually, but it’s going to take several years, and until then the segment will stay fragile and heavily dependent only on government incentives. While 2020 won’t kill the electric car, production delays, economic concerns, and stay-at-home orders will slow the technology’s march toward becoming the new normal in the United States.
 

trutolife27

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Here is it is. I'm married with two kids. Working for ford has allowed me and my family to have things most other people can't afford, and I'm very grateful for that.

But at the end of the day, the BEV market costs too much for most families to be able to afford. Each week is a challenge for them.

My family buying the mache is a want, not a need. I can go buy an escape with many options on the a plan and incentives for around 20,000. 50,000 vs 20,000 not even close.

Yes everyone talking right now would love to buy a BEV instead of a gas. Yes, lots of talk talk talk but for many, the money is not there for them to be able to turn the talk into reality.

tell the cost of BEV comes way down, and the cost to replace the battery is under 5,000 people will still buy ice vehicles.
 

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Once people figure out that a 3-5-year-old BEV is way cheaper than an ICE they will come over to the BEV-side.
I bought a 3 year BEV and its 5-year cost of ownership is less than just the Gas and Maintenance from what it replaced.
 
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timbop

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Dude, you're talking to a brick wall. Although, it is also fascinating logic that having 16 electrified models by 2022 is "not transitioning to EV's fast enough", while Tesla's 5 models in 2022 (assuming the cybertruck starts shipping by then) is the standard of BEV production and development.

Seriously, you are never going to get anywhere.
 



 









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