Munro is not happy with the Mach-E, back in Tesla fanboy mode

RobbH

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So my beef with this isn't because of anything he said about the MME but his assumptions and conclusions on this and all of there other reviews he has done lately.

Cars aren't designed and built in a vacuum and those "other" things needs to looked at just as much as the parts (maybe a Systems-Engineering approach?). Sandy has vast experience in the automotive industry and I want to learn from him but his random "if they just did this" approach, without discussing the possible reasons why they might have made these design choices, makes his videos little more than back seat engineering.

Instead I would like to see him approach these reviews from the POV that the Ford engineers aren't incompetent. Then he could use his automotive knowledge to explain to the auidance the possible reasons that they might have made those design choices.

For example:
You might be able to design a part that from a fresh start would be cheaper and more focused for the MME (what Sandy is suggesting). But now Ford has to design it, test it, contract or create the tooling, establish the supply chain for that new part...for a new model without an existing customer base or without a good idea on how well and how long it will sell.

OR:
Take a suitable (but maybe less elegant) part that requires no new design, has been real-world tested, has an existing supply chain...etc, etc, etc

That would be a far better lesson to take from his videos rather than "Here's a part that could be better" or worse "Well, Tesla does it this way".

If this was only one of three cars that Ford built then Sandy's suggestions would be far more applicable than they are. I mean honestly, explain to your audience that this is why smaller more nimble companies can produce more innovative products. This is how they can gain a competitive advantage over a global giant. But all he does is make reductive comments and say "when I was in the industry" and blame it on bureaucracy rather than explaining industrial momentum.

Anyone can make suggestions but to actually bring them to fruition successfully is where the real work is. Maybe if he approached these reviews with a little more humility and a bit of respect for other engineers he would deserve more praise.

TLDR: Engineering is hard and sometimes you have to take the best of the bad choices. **Insert Teddy Rosevelt's Man in the Arena quote here
 

Mirak

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Wow. Some of you guys are every bit as zealous as the Teslarati. I don’t know if everything this guy says is correct - I’ll assume at least some of it isn’t - but he knows a hell or a lot more about engineering than I do. And most of his criticisms of the Mach E to date are about how Ford could have done things more efficiently from a cost and future maintenance standpoint, which are valid observations. That’s his specialty.

We all agree Ford made some dumb design decisions - like how it made the 12v highly inaccessible. When I see all those hoses and clamps running every which way - yeah, Insee a greater likelihood of leaks down the road. That shouldn’t be controversial.

While the Mach E is supposed to be lower maintenance than an ICE because of fewer moving parts and fewer parts in general, when I look at how all the innards are latched together all I can think is one thing: damn, if something does break that’s going to be expensive to fix. This is way outside DIY territory.
 

theo1000

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While the Mach E is supposed to be lower maintenance than an ICE because of fewer moving parts and fewer parts in general, when I look at how all the innards are latched together all I can think is one thing: damn, if something does break that’s going to be expensive to fix. This is way outside DIY territory.
I have 6 EV's and a collective 65 years on them. Never had a hose break. Honestly simply not an issue because of the lack of thermal cycling. Go look at EV forums, hose issues never come up. What breaks on EV's are occasional contactors and maybe battery controllers and cells. Audi had an issue with the coolant escape a overflow relief port and damaging motors. They were so confident of their hose they simply permanently sealed the relief port. I think if you are coming from an ICE all this can be disorienting. The EV maintenance cycle is very different. For instance lifetime brakes.

I think this is a person a little out of his depth and floundering a bit who does not fully understand EV's or modern car manufacturing speaking. He gets shtick because the TSLA crowd uses this as the 'game over' nonsense. Ford is the vastly superior manufacturer, well really Toyota is the gold standard. With the Germans and the big three close behind.
 

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I thought it was an informative video. He makes some interesting points about the maintenance drawbacks of stacking modules on top of other modules and also the the history of Ford's task force on sealing and fastening trying to get rid of the lower quality spring clamps that are so numerous on the MME.

One of the drawbacks of a big frunk is it forces compromises in the packing of hoses, modules, etc. I think Tesla out-engineered Ford in balancing those compromises since their design and packaging under the frunk is a lot more elegant, while still having a generous sized frunk. Other manufacturers didn't even attempt to add a frunk. Ford will hopefully refine their design in the future.
 

RX33

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Munro WHO?
https://leandesign.com/

Munro & Associates has had a long history in the Automotive Industry, working on pivotal new launches and redesigns for most of the worlds OEM’s (Primes) as well as a vast global array of Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers. As such, innovation and paradigm shift has been a consistent output for several decades.

Munro & Associates provides a wide range of tools to its automotive customers including:
 

Nklem

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Good watch. I did not see anything crazy. Yes lots of pipes. We will see how they are broken down in later videos. He's looking for youtube money too. It was good to see under the frunk in good detail. I am anxious to see more. I still love my Mach E.
 

Valkyrja

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I enjoyed the video and I think he is a great person to be tearing into the Mach-e.

He was at Ford at a critical time in the auto industry. There were a lot of new demands, from both the government and the consumers. They needed smart design to move them forward and it took a lot of work to get to where they ended up. He seemed very please that some of that effort can still be found in the cars of the future (the plastic battery tray). Today another revolution is going on as most of the manufacturers pivot to an electrified fleet.

This video has a lot of good news in it. There appears to be a number of areas where Ford might be able to simplify the manufacture of the vehicle. This means less drastic cost bumps in future models. It could also mean less time at the shop as systems are simplified and easier to work around. And that is just under the frunk. Maybe as he tears into it more some of the design decisions will make more sense to him.

Anyway, fake theatrics in the beginning aside, I found it to be worth the few minutes it took to watch. And I definitely do not think he was being overly mean to the Mach-e. His other videos on the vehicle showed how much appreciation he has for the design. Mayhaps that created some specific expectations for when he was finally able to get under the plastic covers.
 

Murse-In-Airy

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As a LEGO fan, more pieces is a good thing. Or perhaps I’m living my life wrong.
 

brini22

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He basically says Ford isn't as good as Tesla in the thermal system design. But better than everyone else. So rather than view this in negative light accept that he's saying Ford is #2 and likely can fix this within a year like Tesla did if they want. Really not a negative.
What he didn't point out is tension clamps last forever. Also what are hoses made of? Silicon hoses stay soft and last forever unless something rubs hole through hose. Rubber hoses harden and crack with age. Ford would have used quality materials in cooling system. Why 4 pumps? Maybe backup system built in.
 

Carsinmyblood

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More parts cuts both ways. On one hand it costs more, ore parts to inventory, more point sources for failure.

On the other, If/when there's a failure it requires fewer parts to fix what's happened.
 

RX33

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He basically says Ford isn't as good as Tesla in the thermal system design. But better than everyone else. So rather than view this in negative light accept that he's saying Ford is #2 and likely can fix this within a year like Tesla did if they want. Really not a negative.
What I heard him say, and what's posted on their website, is "this is by far one of the worst cooling designs we have seen at Munro. "

https://leandesign.com/whoa-mach-e-thermal-system-nightmare/
 
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EELinneman

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More parts cuts both ways. On one hand it costs more, ore parts to inventory, more point sources for failure.

On the other, If/when there's a failure it requires fewer parts to fix what's happened.
Also, simpler parts to manufacture are cheaper and often easier to integrate. I did find it interesting how many snap connectors are holding down the plastic parts in the frunk. I saw another of his videos where he criticized VW for using bolts and not snap connectors.

To be transparent, he should list who he is or recently got paid by so that we can understand some of his biases.

Ford is doing what they can regarding changes.
 

kltye

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For those who are of the opinion, "That was a great video!" - would you mind letting us know: What exactly did you learn, that you couldn't have figured out by yourself (using "common sense"), if you were standing in front of a torn down MME? They mapped out the coolant flow - great! Now educate me on what each loop does. I don't care if Ford did a crap-ass job on any car - god knows I've dealt with enough transmission issues between the DPS6 and the 6F50, or the shitty aluminum hoods that corrode.

What I want to know from this so-called expert is, how exactly are things bad, and why some compromises might have been made. Not conjecture like, "more parts = more badness", or "Ford is dum hurr durr, should have put more TSLA in their MME".
 

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