Munro is not happy with the Mach-E, back in Tesla fanboy mode

MachTee

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I somewhat like his videos, but I agree, most of the time you learn nothing. I do not care if ford spent more money on the parts, I am more curious if what they build is sound and solid.
My thought exactly. I've watched many (all maybe?) of his Tesla teardown videos. Nearly everytime he mentions "this makes me happy" is a cost cutting measure.

I will be watching all of his MME teardown videos. Maybe it'll be a positive thing for the owner each time he mentions something he didn't like ;)

Sandy has lost whatever credibility he once had. He is now just an old, grumpy guy looking for YouTube views. It's sad, really.
He used to get a lot of hate among the Tesla fanboys. Ever since he's put a positive tone on Tesla, the Tesla fans love him and his channel has grown substantially. He even scored an interview with Elon himself.. I might just be making stuff up here, but if you want to grow your Youtube channel quick, be nice to Tesla.
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MachTee

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I was just poking around in my car, trying to gauge how easy or tough it'll be to mount the rear camera for my dashcam. In pulling down the rear headliner below the shark fin antenna, it came right off with not too much force. I immediately thought I broke one of those plastic retaining clips, you know the ones that always break if you've ever removed many interior trim pieces. Shined my light on it and discovered that these clips (at least these two on the rear of the headliner) are magnetically attached. This makes working on the interior much much easier. This makes me very happy :)

Munro is not going to be happy when he sees this - why in the world would they use an EXPENSIVE magnet on a cheap plastic clip ? IIRC when he teared down a newer Model 3 and discovered that Tesla is leaving out wheel well and under body trim plastic push pin fasteners, leaving a bunch of exposed holes on the car, he was very happy about that, that Tesla has saved 10s of pennies in omitting those totally unnecessary fasteners :rolleyes:

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It was interesting. He’s right. Too many components. Leads to manufacturing errors and Longer times. A bit too haphazard layout. A vertical stacked layout is great to allow a bigger frunk. But then access to major components should not be as hindered. I would usually wait for 2nd or 3rd year model, where this might be sorted out. But the EV incentives are hard to pass up.
 

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Wow -- this got everyone jumping. Agree with e-pony, this is just a straight forward assessment. I saw that video and was a little surprised by "hose-land" under the frunk. It's not an issue of "how well" Ford built a component, but the more components the more chance for failure. And don't fall into the silliness of calling everyone who doesn't automatically love the Mach-E a Tesla fanboy. On the Tesla forum (since shut down) every time someone had something negative to say he was automatically a troll.
 

pt19713

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It was interesting. He’s right. Too many components. Leads to manufacturing errors and Longer times. A bit too haphazard layout. A vertical stacked layout is great to allow a bigger frunk. But then access to major components should not be as hindered. I would usually wait for 2nd or 3rd year model, where this might be sorted out. But the EV incentives are hard to pass up.
I think many that don't have a manufacturing or engineering background don't understand what Munro is stating not clearly in the video. More components, more parts lead to additional manufacturing assembly costs, plus a higher chance of something to be done incorrectly at the assembly level, plus additional time & cost during the service process if something does have to be replaced. Also, in an EV, the extra parts lead to additional weight, reducing efficiency. If the Ford engineering team can simply the design, they probably can reduce the number of hoses and components, reduce the weight, reduce the manufacturing process times, etc.

It took Tesla 3-4 years to implement the more recent Octovalve, so the Model 3 initially wasn't an ideal design, either.
 


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EELinneman

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It took Tesla 3-4 years to implement the more recent Octovalve, so the Model 3 initially wasn't an ideal design, either.
It's an interesting contrast between Tesla's Octovalve and the 4 pumps that Ford implemented. In one case, you have a single component which you would think is cheaper and less likely to fail than 4 components. But, maybe not. 4 pumps that they are likely very familiar with vs a brand new complex part. Time will tell as will future models with their changes.

Not every complex single part is an advantage. Tesla buying the IDRA presses to create single component subframes would seem to be an advantage, but what happens when you get in a crash and it gets damaged or broken? It is repairable or replaceable or is this one of those things that your insurance company will say is a totaled car.

I also wonder what kind of volume can be created by these amazing presses. Musk has engineered some amazing things across his companies. The question is will it scale. The contrasting question to ask is why Ford, Toyota, GM, etc are not pursuing a similar approach? Is Ford taking a small step in re-engineering their cars and trucks as they head towards a BEV future to avoid big changes and risks or have they figured out something that Tesla has not. We cannot avoid the production number comparisons - Ford has a way to go. I have faith that they will get there. We all know they are not perfect - see a lot of people's experiences.

All I can for sure - this is an exciting time to see a major shift in auto technology and engineering. Enjoy the ride folks.
 

noway

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I think many that don't have a manufacturing or engineering background don't understand what Munro is stating not clearly in the video. More components, more parts lead to additional manufacturing assembly costs, plus a higher chance of something to be done incorrectly at the assembly level, plus additional time & cost during the service process if something does have to be replaced. Also, in an EV, the extra parts lead to additional weight, reducing efficiency. If the Ford engineering team can simply the design, they probably can reduce the number of hoses and components, reduce the weight, reduce the manufacturing process times, etc.
This might be true, but what might also be the case and what should be clearly visible when he talks about number of modules, and putting multiple modules in one "big module" is that it is not necessary less number of components if they are all stacked into a "black box" where each component is not "visible" as if they were multiple modules. It does not necessary make a difference since still all of those components has to be assembled somehow, even if they are not visible unless dismantling the module also.

If he had not dismantled the frunk he would never have seen that hose mess, and could have assumed it was not there and just seen the whole frunk as "one module". It is just about how much someone wants to go into the details, how many modules to dismantle before considering something one single module? Is a circuit board one module? Is one chip on the circuit board one module? If it is a SoC (multiple chips manufactured into one single chip), are each module inside the SoC one module, or is the whole SoC a module? Do we consider each software component running on the chip as separate modules?

He did say something in the lines of exact oposite when comparing the circuit boards for the Model 3 vs Model Y body controller (if I remember correctly). In that case, filling the circuit board with components was apparently a good thing.. more components = better apparently.
 
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EELinneman

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He did say something in the lines of exact oposite when comparing the circuit boards for the Model 3 vs Model Y body controller (if I remember correctly). In that case, filling the circuit board with components was apparently a good thing.. more components = better apparently.
I suspect he would say that this is true with electronics on a single unit and not true with mechanical devices. I have heard him say that their goal is to reduce components that do not move. He mentions often that he was part of a team at Ford that worked on fasteners and that is what drives him to avoid bolts, screws and other non-snapping connectors. How often have you had to struggle with what have been referred to as "Jesus clips" to connect things together?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jesus clip
 

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With all due disrespect… he is a bafoon. its clear that he is claiming expertise that he doesn’t have. The frunk release wasn’t forgotten, it isn’t enabled yet, which required the dividers to be installed, which then necessitated the drilling of the mounting holes. I also noticed that he laid out every piece under the hood and claimed that they all made it much more complex than teslas design, in which he only included the tub, not all the surrounding covers.

This clown can go eat a family sized bag of rancid d*ck tips.
Actually, that was the point about the tub. Tesla molds the "covers" as part of the tub, which is why he only showed the tub. He's pointing out that one part in the Tesla was about 10 parts on the Mach E, and Ford would have a better product if they molded those covers (or at least most of them) as part of the tub.
 

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The deep tub that TSLA uses also compromises the sound insulation. This came up in an Audi review. I have to say the Mache is a very quiet car, very close to the Etron in term of acoustics. Very well done IME.
 

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For those who are of the opinion, "That was a great video!" - would you mind letting us know: What exactly did you learn, that you couldn't have figured out by yourself (using "common sense"), if you were standing in front of a torn down MME? They mapped out the coolant flow - great! Now educate me on what each loop does. I don't care if Ford did a crap-ass job on any car - god knows I've dealt with enough transmission issues between the DPS6 and the 6F50, or the shitty aluminum hoods that corrode.

What I want to know from this so-called expert is, how exactly are things bad, and why some compromises might have been made. Not conjecture like, "more parts = more badness", or "Ford is dum hurr durr, should have put more TSLA in their MME".
I can't afford to tear down a Mach-E and I doubt any other people here can either. That alone makes the video interesting.
 

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Actually, that was the point about the tub. Tesla molds the "covers" as part of the tub, which is why he only showed the tub. He's pointing out that one part in the Tesla was about 10 parts on the Mach E, and Ford would have a better product if they molded those covers (or at least most of them) as part of the tub.
No. Those other covers are to get to the 12v battery, the fuse panel, the high voltage battery connectors, and other stuff. Why would I want to need to remove the tub to test the 12v battery or change a fuse?
 

zvez

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He could be right, and in any case, the Mach-e is Ford's largest attempt at developing an EV.

I'm not going to insult him just because his views might 'hurt' some people here.

If Ford continues to innovate in the EV space, whatever he says will be moot in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the mach-e. You can't get everything right and/or optimized your first try.

Hopefully the Ford leadership allows the mach-e team to continue to innovate and make a great car. Ford REALLY needs to work on follow-up with their customers, better ordering systems and fix the damned charging.

They should have that all worked out by the time my GTP is built :D
everyone points to tesla ,, but tesla has been in EV biz for years and years. Certainly they had lots of trial and error, and they're still roundly criticized in terms of build quality.
 

Scrannel

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The question is, are other EV makers ABLE to adapt? One of the things Munro keeps hitting on (and I think justly) that will hold manufacturers back is their reliance on (slavery to) the "parts bin." There is a logic to building something from scratch. That logic will always be subverted by any preexisting (legacy) infrastructure. Tesla is criticized for fit and finish issues. But it got just about every other EV issue right. That's going to be tough for regular manufactures when they are being held back by traditional suppliers and dealers.
 

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One thing I note about Munro is that he keeps touting his leadership and innovation at Ford in the 1980s. Hasn’t Ford hired or developed any other innovative leaders since he left? Hasn’t the automotive state of the art in design and manufacturing advanced since the 1986 Ford Taurus? ?
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