Scooby24

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There's a whole lotta room for improvement here.
 

Texas-E

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I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement. I'd love for him to spend time talking about repairability vs. assembly ease in his videos, though.

I really don't get my feelings hurt by his videos. I think he is biased, and it is obvious, though. Flopping parts out of a beat-up Home Depot box pretty much indicates how they approached this. It would have been interesting to see the reassembled Ford cooling system to compare it to Tesla... but I suspect that isn't as dramatic.
 

theo1000

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There's a whole lotta room for improvement here.
No the guy doesn't know what he is talking about. The battery cooling on the MachE is a lot more robust and redundant. There is a reason the old volts and bolts have seen a lot less degradation than the TSLA folks. The Mache is based on that robust cooling system.

Keep in mind the TSLA's have 100's of feet of narrow tube channels between the cells inside the modules. The Mach-E design pedigree keeps call the channels outside the battery compartment. This has proven to be much more effective.
 

Jimrpa

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Where’s the Tesla 12V battery and it’s associated “fixture”? The Tesla “heat pump” doesn’t have ANYTHING analogous to a condenser? Really? And just how does THAT work? Where do they radiate heat from the AC in the summertime? How about pulling heat in the wintertime? Or are they just relying on some variant of Maxwell’s demons? (Perhaps Elon’s Imps?)
 
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Scooby24

Scooby24

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I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement. I'd love for him to spend time talking about repairability vs. assembly ease in his videos, though.

I really don't get my feelings hurt by his videos. I think he is biased, and it is obvious, though. Flopping parts out of a beat-up Home Depot box pretty much indicates how they approached this. It would have been interesting to see the reassembled Ford cooling system to compare it to Tesla... but I suspect that isn't as dramatic.

Why would anyone get their feelings hurt by his videos? From an engineering perspective, I don't think he's displaying any real bias other than having a bias towards better and more efficient engineering.

Ford can improve their design here and I appreciate that the inefficiencies are being brought to light. That's what prompts change. Munro's points have been taken by the OEMs and some things he's mentioned could be improved have made their way into production.

If there's any offense taken in his videos I'd suspect the bias resides moreso in the person taking offense.
 

memcm_expert

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I am looking forward to seeing what the Lucid looks like. From what I have see so far, I'm very impressed with the Lucid engineering.
 
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Scooby24

Scooby24

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Where’s the Tesla 12V battery and it’s associated “fixture”? The Tesla “heat pump” doesn’t have ANYTHING analogous to a condenser? Really? And just how does THAT work? Where do they radiate heat from the AC in the summertime? How about pulling heat in the wintertime? Or are they just relying on some variant of Maxwell’s demons? (Perhaps Elon’s Imps?)
It's in the video...The battery is integrated in the fixture they showed. The Heat pump is using a water based heat exchanger for the condenser.
 
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Scooby24

Scooby24

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No the guy doesn't know what he is talking about. The battery cooling on the MachE is a lot more robust and redundant. There is a reason the old volts and bolts have seen a lot less degradation than the TSLA folks. The Mache is based on that robust cooling system.

Keep in mind the TSLA's have 100's of feet of narrow tube channels between the cells inside the modules. The Mach-E design pedigree keeps call the channels outside the battery compartment. This has proven to be much more effective.
Did we watch the same video? He wasn't addressing the battery pack's cooling, he was addressing the less efficient design of the entire cooling system from an engineering perspective which requires more hoses, more weight, more brackets, twice as many pumps, large condenser, etc.

I do think he knows quite a lot about which he speaks.
 

snikt

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Where’s the Tesla 12V battery and it’s associated “fixture”? The Tesla “heat pump” doesn’t have ANYTHING analogous to a condenser? Really? And just how does THAT work? Where do they radiate heat from the AC in the summertime? How about pulling heat in the wintertime? Or are they just relying on some variant of Maxwell’s demons? (Perhaps Elon’s Imps?)
There is a condenser, it's just tiny in comparison

1626449202988.png
 

BillK

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Pretty well knew what this video would contain before i watched. Could the Ford be better optimized for weight? You bet. Does the Ford system look more durable that the Tesla? Absolutely!

Tesla's octovalve looks very clever. It also looks like it was designed by people with no experience working in vehicle design. Let me give you one quick example. Have you ever seem a washer fluid bottle leak? It's not uncommon. Octovalve is made of the same PA66, but acturally has heavy components mounted on vertical panels where they will exert torque with every bump and pothole. On the Ford components are accessible for service. Making a repair on the Tesla system will be very labor intensive.

I'm not worried about coolant leaks from hoses since all EV cooling systems operate at moderate temperatures and effectively no system pressure. Hose leaks when they do occur are easily repaired anyway.
 

Jimrpa

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There is a condenser, it's just tiny in comparison

1626449202988.png
I freely admit I am not a thermal systems engineer, but heat has to be moved out of the vehicle at some point. This is usually done via some form of radiative surface. Where is the heat being radiated away into the environment? Maybe I’m dumb and that little, enclosed box, covered with green tape IS radiating heat into it he environment and onto the components (which are other parts of the cooling system?) around it?
 

db4z

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There is a condenser, it's just tiny in comparison

1626449202988.png
The condenser being liquid cooled along with some more valves is essentially the key to making the system run as a heat pump as it allows the refrigerant system to either heat or cool the water loop. In A/C mode the difference is the refrigerant heat has to be transfered to water and then the water has to transfer the heat to the air with a radiator whereas the mach e's is transfering the refrigerant directly to air. Yes the mach e design adds more parts and weight but it should theoretically be more efficient in a/c mode but at expense of not having a heat pump function in cold conditions.

I suspect the frunk was late design decision and the Ford team had to work very hard at cramming all the components into a smaller space and thus the resulting hoses were the consequence. Ford is well in their way in developing next gen bev platforms so I would expect a lot of this to improved.
 

BillK

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There is a condenser, it's just tiny in comparison

1626449202988.png
Yes, that is the condenser. It transfers heat to coolant that is then sent through a radiator in the front of the car. That radiator must be larger than an equivalent refrigerant to air heat exchanger.

BTW, It is best to mount brazed plate heat exchangers vertically (skinny end on top), but I guess Sandy hasn't noticed that yet (insert random eyeroll emoji here).
 

Jimrpa

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It's in the video...The battery is integrated in the fixture they showed. The Heat pump is using a water based heat exchanger for the condenser.
Right. I rewatched the video and found the battery. Thanks.
 

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