Negative Oil Prices & Big Oil Bailouts

silverelan

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After seeing the news this morning about Federal government ideas being floated to rescue oil companies, it's made me even more determined to GTFO of a gas car and into an electric vehicle.

I want to do as little as possible to support these same fossil companies that lobby lawmakers to eliminate EV incentives for taxpayers and pile on extra fees to owners yet grovel for taxpayer bailouts.

Ford! Hurry up and get my Mustang Mach-E out of the factory and into my driveway!!
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-trump-idUSKCN2231Z6

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/16/oil-industry-electric-car-1729429
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Ken7

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I think we need to temper some of the disdain for oil with the impact it has on our nation’s economy. A sudden collapse of oil is devastating for our economy. The market reaction today was just a small example of the potential impact. Unemployment is yet another example.

So although I understand the disdain, it would be far healthier for this to be a gradual transition, which in actuality it would have to be unless everyone switches to BEVs overnight and gives up their oil heat.
 

ClaudeMach-E

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The only good side effects of this pandemia is that now we have a clean air all over the planet. So maybe people will see that it is possible to win this battle against pollution if only governments are willing to take strong measures to encourage people switch to EV's.
 

ChasingCoral

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I think we need to temper some of the disdain for oil with the impact it has on our nation’s economy. A sudden collapse of oil is devastating for our economy. The market reaction today was just a small example of the potential impact. Unemployment is yet another example.

So although I understand the disdain, it would be far healthier for this to be a gradual transition, which in actuality it would have to be unless everyone switches to BEVs overnight and gives up their oil heat.
You're absolutely right, Ken7. A sudden collapse would be hard on the economy. However, we can and should be carbon neutral in the next decade. That is quite manageable for everyone except those who are unwilling to give up their huge profits for the good of everyone on the planet.
 

pbojanoski

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You're absolutely right, Ken7. A sudden collapse would be hard on the economy. However, we can and should be carbon neutral in the next decade. That is quite manageable for everyone except those who are unwilling to give up their huge profits for the good of everyone on the planet.
Why can't we do both? What's wrong with going carbon neutral and making "huge profits". I'm guessing that will be the better option over government enforcement of arbitrary dates and "carbon nuetral" requirements.

Let's let the smart people (like Elon Musk and others) provide a great product and then people will have no reason to not want these vehicles. Why so much faith in people (government) that at best provide mediocre service and at worst are corrupt or incompetent?

I'd really want to know why people feel all the genius altruists are in government, but somehow screw most things up. And the dumb greed bags are in private business, but somehow are providing you products and services and a standard of living never seen before on this earth. I'd love to hear the answer to that question.
 


dbsb3233

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I know many people think "well, let's just all switch to EVs - problem solved!". Problem is that's neither practical nor possible in any sort of quick timeline. Hell, just look at how difficult it was for Ford to secure 50,000 battery packs for an entire model year of Mach-e's. 50k is just 0.3% of the quantity of new vehicles sold in the US in a typical year. And that's only counting the US.

Even if BEVs were a good fit for all drivers (they're not), it's still a transition measured in decades, not months.

The real change will come when they perfect cheap, autonomous, (EV) taxi services. When you can just summon an electric pod to your house to take you to the store for 6 bucks door-to-door, then people will start seriously rethinking whether they need to spend $5000-$8000/yr on average to buy/maintain/drive their own private vehicles.
 
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pbojanoski

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The real change will come when they perfect cheap, autonomous, (EV) taxi services. When you can just summon an electric pod to your house to take you to the store for 6 bucks dood-to-door, then people will start seriously rethinking whether they need to spend $7000/yr on average to buy/maintain/drive their own private vehicles.
I'm not looking forward to that day though. A personal vehicle is the symbol of freedom for most people. That you can get in your car and go where you want, when you want, etc. is a great feeling of freedom. I'd hate to see that feeling leave this country. If/when it does, if there isn't another thing promoting personal freedom, this country may very well never be the same or as good.
 

dbsb3233

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I'm not looking forward to that day though. A personal vehicle is the symbol of freedom for most people. That you can get in your car and go where you want, when you want, etc. is a great feeling of freedom. I'd hate to see that feeling leave this country. If/when it does, if there isn't another thing promoting personal freedom, this country may very well never be the same or as good.
I mostly agree, although the AV taxi services I'm talking about would be able to do almost the same thing. It still allows for nearly the same level of mobility as drivers have now (without the hassle and limitations of mass transit). And for some people, it allows a lot more mobility. Like seniors, handicapped, teens, etc that aren't able to drive.

But I get what you're saying. There's a certain feeling of freedom and control when you're the driver.
 

jlauro

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The real change will come when they perfect cheap, autonomous, (EV) taxi services. When you can just summon an electric pod to your house to take you to the store for 6 bucks door-to-door, then people will start seriously rethinking whether they need to spend $5000-$8000/yr on average to buy/maintain/drive their own private vehicles.
At first I was going to say a bit high on the estimate for me (including gas, insurance, purchase price, oil changes and other maintenance spread out over 10+ years), but you said "vehicles" which would also include my wife's... so price range might be close.

To be compelling for me on a daily basis, it would have to be closer to $5 for a round trip door - to store door - and back for a driverless taxi.
 

Ken7

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Why can't we do both? What's wrong with going carbon neutral and making "huge profits". I'm guessing that will be the better option over government enforcement of arbitrary dates and "carbon nuetral" requirements.

Let's let the smart people (like Elon Musk and others) provide a great product and then people will have no reason to not want these vehicles. Why so much faith in people (government) that at best provide mediocre service and at worst are corrupt or incompetent?

I'd really want to know why people feel all the genius altruists are in government, but somehow screw most things up. And the dumb greed bags are in private business, but somehow are providing you products and services and a standard of living never seen before on this earth. I'd love to hear the answer to that question.
Bingo! Very well said. I’d rather leave as little to government as possible. Unfortunately, as is so obvious right here in NY, we have some of the dumbest people serving in government. That’s why New Yorkers are leaving in droves.

No, I put more faith in the private sector to solve problems and give people what they want. That’s why capitalism is the most successful economic/governmental system there is.
 

dbsb3233

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At first I was going to say a bit high on the estimate for me (including gas, insurance, purchase price, oil changes and other maintenance spread out over 10+ years), but you said "vehicles" which would also include my wife's... so price range might be close.

To be compelling for me on a daily basis, it would have to be closer to $5 for a round trip door - to store door - and back for a driverless taxi.
It can vary a lot, of course, but when I did the math for a typical situation I was surprised how high the number came out. The IRS has already done the calculation for us when they calculate the vehicle mileage rates ($0.58/mile for 2020).

Googling typical averages, figure the avg miles/yr of 13,500, and 10 years of vehicle life. And $36,000 avg purchase price. MPG of 25, and gas price of $3.00.

$3600 per year vehicle purchase
$1620 gas (540 gallons @ $3.00)
$1000 insurance
$500 tires/maintenance
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$6720

IRS figure is $0.58 x 13,500 miles = $7830.

Most people that purchase a vehicle probably finance too, which adds interest.
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