Advertisement



New Hyundai Ionic 5 EV to pull off impressive range

Randy E.

Member
First Name
Bobby
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
17
Reaction score
16
Location
USA
First Name
Bobby
Vehicles
Ford Explorer, KIA Stinger GT AWD
Occupation
Component Sales
Country flag
Three photos (renderings) were teased today from Hyundai (https://www.motor1.com/news/465808/2022-hyundai-ioniq-5-teaser/), with the new cross-over coming to market on Hyundai's new E-GMP floor-based battery pack. Rumors suggest it could provide up to 342 miles, with it's long-range version. How large a battery stack will Hyundai need to achieve that range, and at what price? That's an unanswered question

I'm very interested to see what Ford will be able to do with the Mustang Mach-E over the next two-years, and other EV vehicles regarding efficiency.

The big game right now seems to be range: How far can - insert EV name here - go on a single charge? While the mileage figure is a simple answer, how each company gets to that number is quite complex, and the true name of the game is EFFICIENCY. Companies may be able to get 500+ mile range per charge, but it if takes a 400kWh battery stack, that car is going to be massively expensive.

Tesla leads everyone in efficiency due to their inverter technology, while sipping power for other functions (heat pumps anyone - a big whoops for cold weather folks!)... Converting all that DC battery power into to AC for the motors to operate is a big task, and how well that inversion process is managed is a big deal. The second area regarding efficiency is weight. The Mustang Mach-E weighs, what, 500lbs more than an apples-to-apple's equipped Model Y?

Weight and inversion efficiency go hand-in-hand.

Take two same-class cars: If car A can achieve 300 mile range on a single charge with a 75kWh battery stack, but it takes car B using a 100kWh battery stack to achieve the same distance, unless car B is using plastic and balsa-wood everywhere, it's just gonna weigh more. The manufacturer is also going to suffer a higher price, lower margin, or both as a result. This is Ford's position right now with the Mach-E.

For the Mach-E's sake, this all begs the question: How long will it take for Ford to achieve efficiencies (mostly leading back to the inverter and power management for the rest of the vehicle) to gain xyz range per kWh of battery, in order to stay competitive in overall vehicle range and price?

Go beyond the Tesla "fan-boys" and most people like the look and design of the Mach-E over the Model Y. Ford's interior design, quieter cabin, build and overall drive quality are thus far, outpacing the Model Y. However, after the dust has settled and all the Mach-E enthusiasts have put in their orders, and Ford begins running out of Federal tax credits, where will they be with their EV lineup and will it be competitive in price and range (all roads lead back to efficiency)?

It is a very, very, difficult ask for any company. The culture of Detroit is quite different from that of Silicon Valley. SV is a phonetic, hyper-work culture, where people forego having families or even getting married for years on end to achieve a program or stated target at record speed. Detroit? This isn't how it's done. Not even close. "Hey, I put in my time. I even work some weekends on Saturdays and I'm doing good work - our team is. But I'm going to my son's baseball game and my daughters recital, and I've accrued six-weeks of vacation per year and I'm using every - single - day of it." That's good. That can be a very healthy culture, but that's now how SV works. That's now how Tesla engineering lives, nor Rivian's, Apple's, China's or even the Korea's auto makers. Many working the SV culture can't even related to what the Detroit engineer was even talking about.

I've owned many Ford's, they've been great, but as Saruman said "A new day is rising... " Have the horse people to the north been asleep for too long in Rohan? It will be difficult for those coming out of the traditional auto industry to keep pace. Here's to hoping Ford is able to do so, using the Mach-E to lead the way.
 

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
3,106
Location
Ohio
First Name
John
Vehicles
2016 Escape, 2019 Fusion Energi
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
Three photos (renderings) were teased today from Hyundai (https://www.motor1.com/news/465808/2022-hyundai-ioniq-5-teaser/), with the new cross-over coming to market on Hyundai's new E-GMP floor-based battery pack. Rumors suggest it could provide up to 342 miles, with it's long-range version. How large a battery stack will Hyundai need to achieve that range, and at what price? That's an unanswered question

I'm very interested to see what Ford will be able to do with the Mustang Mach-E over the next two-years, and other EV vehicles regarding efficiency.

The big game right now seems to be range: How far can - insert EV name here - go on a single charge? While the mileage figure is a simple answer, how each company gets to that number is quite complex, and the true name of the game is EFFICIENCY. Companies may be able to get 500+ mile range per charge, but it if takes a 400kWh battery stack, that car is going to be massively expensive.

Tesla leads everyone in efficiency due to their inverter technology, while sipping power for other functions (heat pumps anyone - a big whoops for cold weather folks!)... Converting all that DC battery power into to AC for the motors to operate is a big task, and how well that inversion process is managed is a big deal. The second area regarding efficiency is weight. The Mustang Mach-E weighs, what, 500lbs more than an apples-to-apple's equipped Model Y?

Weight and inversion efficiency go hand-in-hand.

Take two same-class cars: If car A can achieve 300 mile range on a single charge with a 75kWh battery stack, but it takes car B using a 100kWh battery stack to achieve the same distance, unless car B is using plastic and balsa-wood everywhere, it's just gonna weigh more. The manufacturer is also going to suffer a higher price, lower margin, or both as a result. This is Ford's position right now with the Mach-E.

For the Mach-E's sake, this all begs the question: How long will it take for Ford to achieve efficiencies (mostly leading back to the inverter and power management for the rest of the vehicle) to gain xyz range per kWh of battery, in order to stay competitive in overall vehicle range and price?

Go beyond the Tesla "fan-boys" and most people like the look and design of the Mach-E over the Model Y. Ford's interior design, quieter cabin, build and overall drive quality are thus far, outpacing the Model Y. However, after the dust has settled and all the Mach-E enthusiasts have put in their orders, and Ford begins running out of Federal tax credits, where will they be with their EV lineup and will it be competitive in price and range (all roads lead back to efficiency)?

It is a very, very, difficult ask for any company. The culture of Detroit is quite different from that of Silicon Valley. SV is a phonetic, hyper-work culture, where people forego having families or even getting married for years on end to achieve a program or stated target at record speed. Detroit? This isn't how it's done. Not even close. "Hey, I put in my time. I even work some weekends on Saturdays and I'm doing good work - our team is. But I'm going to my son's baseball game and my daughters recital, and I've accrued six-weeks of vacation per year and I'm using every - single - day of it." That's good. That can be a very healthy culture, but that's now how SV works. That's now how Tesla engineering lives, nor Rivian's, Apple's, China's or even the Korea's auto makers. Many working the SV culture can't even related to what the Detroit engineer was even talking about.

I've owned many Ford's, they've been great, but as Saruman said "A new day is rising... " Have the horse people to the north been asleep for too long in Rohan? It will be difficult for those coming out of the traditional auto industry to keep pace. Here's to hoping Ford is able to do so, using the Mach-E to lead the way.
I've stated this before, but I think the focus on range is a red herring. It is the simple and obvious thing for laymen who don't know a thing about EV's to focus on.

The range of the Mach E is totally fine for most use cases and charging at home. The key to me is what happens when you are on that trip? I will take a car EVERY day that only has 250 miles of range, but that has a charging curve allowing it to DCFC from 10-80% in 15 minutes when I am on a road trip. If you watch @OutofSpecKyle 's videos, and know about his recent cannonball run, the charge rate can be MUCH more important than the range.

I will RARELY use all the range up on my ER AWD Mach E. BUT, when I am on a trip, I would rather and am more likely to stop every two hours or so for 15 minutes at a DCFC, than have to stop after a much longer period of time and spend a LOT longer there because of a slow charging curve.

And as to that SV culture . . . a lot of us think it is toxic. It has burned many people out. Keep in mind what eventually happened to Saruman in your analogy. In that sense, it may be a valid comparison. When the battle came, it was the Rohirrim that were ultimately victorious.
 
OP

Randy E.

Member
First Name
Bobby
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
17
Reaction score
16
Location
USA
First Name
Bobby
Vehicles
Ford Explorer, KIA Stinger GT AWD
Occupation
Component Sales
Country flag
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
I've stated this before, but I think the focus on range is a red herring. It is the simple and obvious thing for laymen who don't know a thing about EV's to focus on.

The range of the Mach E is totally fine for most use cases and charging at home. The key to me is what happens when you are on that trip? I will take a car EVERY day that only has 250 miles of range, but that has a charging curve allowing it to DCFC from 10-80% in 15 minutes when I am on a road trip. If you watch @OutofSpecKyle 's videos, and know about his recent cannonball run, the charge rate can be MUCH more important than the range.

I will RARELY use all the range up on my ER AWD Mach E. BUT, when I am on a trip, I would rather and am more likely to stop every two hours or so for 15 minutes at a DCFC, than have to stop after a much longer period of time and spend a LOT longer there because of a slow charging curve.

And as to that SV culture . . . a lot of us think it is toxic. It has burned many people out. Keep in mind what eventually happened to Saruman in your analogy. In that sense, it may be a valid comparison. When the battle came, it was the Rohirrim that were ultimately victorious.
Agreed on range being a red herring - IF - it's just your commuter vehicle and rarely take trips. Entering an empty-nester phase, we drive, and I also am one of those millions of outside sales guys that drives (in a normal world) about 25k miles a year or more.

For family/wife, go to the coast for a night or two, I don't want to figure out a night or so before, if I go to a customer's and come back, will we not be able to head out at 4pm to the coast, because I just drove 100+ miles that day and need to charge for 4 hours? Or charge an hour an then figure ut where at the coast has a charger nearby my hotel or bread and breakfast, and figure out the charging speed, etc... "Sorry honey, we need to leave later tonight or leave tomorrow AM because my car needs fuel?"

With business, driving 3+ hours and visiting customers and heading home or staying overnight, I need to figure out charing solutions. Does my hotel have charging? If not, am I going to walk from xyz or something to my hotel in the rain, or snow or heat, while my car charges? Or if my hotel has a few chargers are they taken? Do I need to get up at 2 am and steal the guy's charger to hook my car up so I can get home the next day?

Not needing a 3-row, for vacations and road trips, do I want to figure any of this out?

Honestly? No. Gas is a ubiquitous solution, it's everywhere, it's fast, I don't need to plan for it whatsoever. I just think there is a long ways to go to where I don't feel I'm going backwards or compromising in needing to figure out my fueling itinerary, that just seems crazy to me.

However, and I will circle back to your original thought, for a commuter I totally agree, go for it. Range does not mean much for a single person, or a family driver that's just the commuter, to and from work 15 - 30 miles a day, groceries, kids to whatever, etc... For millions of other folks, it is an issue because the use case is indeed different.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
2,254
Reaction score
4,505
Location
Ohio
First Name
Michael
Vehicles
2013 Ford Fusion Energi, 2021 Mach-E First Edition (ordered)
Country flag
they called their platform E-GMP?!?
giphy.gif
 

RonTCat

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ron
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
534
Reaction score
810
Location
USA
First Name
Ron
Vehicles
Mach-E wannabuy
Country flag
It is a very, very, difficult ask for any company. The culture of Detroit is quite different from that of Silicon Valley. SV is a phonetic, hyper-work culture, where people forego having families or even getting married for years on end to achieve a program or stated target at record speed. Detroit?
I wish I could find the Detroit company with this culture, lol... on vehicles launches, less than 80 hours a week is a slacker. SV didn't invent this culture, they learned it.
 

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
3,106
Location
Ohio
First Name
John
Vehicles
2016 Escape, 2019 Fusion Energi
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
I wish I could find the Detroit company with this culture, lol... on vehicles launches, less than 80 hours a week is a slacker. SV didn't invent this culture, they learned it.
WHAT???
SV didn't invent EVERYTHING including the workaholic culture?
Someone better let them know!
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
2,765
Reaction score
5,178
Location
New Jersey
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2015 Mustang Convertible (to be replaced by MME RT 1), 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
I'll agree that efficiency (both charging and discharging to the wheels) is extremely important, but I don't think it is a death blow to have a lower efficiency. Once the minimum threshold for range is met, it becomes less crucial. For a long time DSLR buyers (and thus manufacturers) were hyperfocused on number of pixels in a camera. This stemmed from the early days when resolutions were so low that anything over a 4x6 looked awful, but eventually as DSLR sensors got to 8 or 10 megapixels the difference in image quality of large prints had far less to do with the number of MP and more to do with the lenses and the sensor's physical size ("fullframe" versus smaller sensors). However, novice consumers were still only concerned with the pixel count for a long time after that - even though many stopped using that as their lone criterion for purchases.

It's going to take a while for the BEV market to get beyond range as the perceived most critical factor, but the Mach E has a high enough range that it will still do well. 4 or 5 years from now every BEV will have enough range for it not to matter, but some novices are still going to worry about that single criterion.

As for the initial "news": a rendering of some future BEV is rumored to have a lot of range? OK.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBC

RonTCat

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ron
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
534
Reaction score
810
Location
USA
First Name
Ron
Vehicles
Mach-E wannabuy
Country flag
WHAT???
SV didn't invent EVERYTHING including the workaholic culture?
Someone better let them know!
I worked with people that cancelled their apartment lease, sold their car, stored their belonging at a storage rental, and worked on launches for 2+ straight years (on the road, so to speak). Had essentially zero expenses. Company paid lodging and food. Banked 100% of their income. Dirty slackers would never make it in SV, lol.
 

DBC

Well-Known Member
First Name
Don
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
655
Reaction score
683
Location
San Diego
First Name
Don
Vehicles
Volt ELR
Country flag
A few of points. One is that whether a vehicle is worthy on longer trips depends on the vehicle. A Chevy Bolt or Hyundai Ioniq may have plenty of range but that wouldn't mean I'd want to take one on a longer trip. Short wheelbase vehicles are not ideal for longer trips regardless of whether they are ICE or electric.

Two is that charging time is far more important than range. A vehicle charging at 800V adds 15 miles/minute. So easy enough to finish your sales calls, charge up, and head out.

It's unclear how the Ioniq stacks up. On range, the 342 miles of range is for WLPT. That drive cycle is usually very conservative. Other than Tesla, most vehicles get more range on the WLPT tests than on the EPA tests. The current IONIQ isn't too bad with a ratio of 1.14. That would give a range of 300 miles. Could be a little more or less, it just depends. The charging speed isn't specified. My guess would be 400V so nothing to get too excited about. Finally, with respect to wheelbase, no specs on that in the article.

Three is that it doesn't take long to figure out where to charge and hard to imagine charging at the coast will be an issue. A Tesla Tap would likely be useful. Often destination chargers have both Tesla and J1772 EVSE, so being able to use either gives more flexibility.
 

Dan G

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dan
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
62
Reaction score
78
Location
Detroit
First Name
Dan
Vehicles
Hyundai Ioniq
Occupation
Pilot
Country flag
Tesla does have great efficiency. But you know what's better? The Hyundai Ioniq. Just check the EPA MPGe. Although I'm not sure about the new 2021 models. I'm very much looking forward to this car. If it was just coming out a bit earlier I might be on their forum right now.

Range isn't really where people need to be focused. Charging speed, for me, is much more important. And this platform has the potential for some great charging times. I just hope it doesn't look too ugly. (Looking at you, Kona.)
 

agoldman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
739
Reaction score
660
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
2020 volvo xc60 Polestar Plug-in. Mach E FE & GT on order
Country flag
It's going to take a while for the BEV market to get beyond range as the perceived most critical factor,
It's both range, and ease of finding an open chnarge station, and also then the speed of charging to an acceptable level of range. They all go together for the masses to adopt EV. We still have a ways to go on all fronts.
 

UW2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
213
Reaction score
253
Location
Los Angeles
Vehicles
Mustang Mach E
Country flag
I like how we factor things like range and charge into what is essentially an aesthetic purchase
 

DBC

Well-Known Member
First Name
Don
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
655
Reaction score
683
Location
San Diego
First Name
Don
Vehicles
Volt ELR
Country flag
Tesla leads everyone in efficiency due to their inverter technology, while sipping power for other functions (heat pumps anyone - a big whoops for cold weather folks!)... Converting all that DC battery power into to AC for the motors to operate is a big task, and how well that inversion process is managed is a big deal. The second area regarding efficiency is weight. The Mustang Mach-E weighs, what, 500lbs more than an apples-to-apple's equipped Model Y?
Tesla may have an efficiency advantage but a lot of the claimed advantage appears to stem from gaming the EPA tests rather than from anything real. Tesla is the only company where the EPA range is greater than the WLPT range. If you look at the WLPT efficiency numbers, the efficiency advantage isn't very large and in some instances doesn't exist (the Tesla LR Model 3 has an efficiency of 152 Wh/km and the Hyundai Ioniq has an efficiency of 153 Wh/km).

Additionally, efficiency doesn't transfer into cost in a linear way because the cost components of a battery pack are not the same. Tesla uses small format cells. Most other manufacturers use large format cells. Consequently, while 35-40% of the cost of a Tesla battery pack is in the cells, 60-65% of the cost of a pack from another manufacture may be in the cells. Going forward, which pack ends up costing less per kWh thus depends on how fast costs are taken out of the cells in relation to the rest of the pack. IOW higher miles/kWh can be cancelled by higher $/kWh.

Finally, mass isn't nearly as important as aerodynamics for efficiency even at low speeds. This creates a great deal of tension between design and efficiency. My guess is design prevails, which is why not everyone is queued up to buy a Lightyear One.
 

RonTCat

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ron
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
534
Reaction score
810
Location
USA
First Name
Ron
Vehicles
Mach-E wannabuy
Country flag
I would expect the Ioniq to nudge the range battle a little higher next year. Ford, GM, VW, Tesla, etc. won't stand still, either. And 800v is no longer years away. Every model year will see improvements in range.

Everyone is on the permanent magnet motor bandwagon, and it's because they are 90-95% efficient. Saying Tesla is more efficient may be true, but you are likely talking less than 1%. It's like saying having $101 million is better than $100 million. It is, but so what? The difference is not significant. If would be difficult to take a Ford, Porche, and Tesla drivetrain only and measure which is most efficient. They would all be so close, the winning margin is just not relevant.

Where Tesla get range bang-for-the-buck is in aero drag coefficient. They didn't go for good looking, they went for the aero crown. A Mach-E just pushes a lot more air out of the way than a Model Y, and at highway speeds, that's a big deal. That's where the "efficiency" war is won.

It's also why if you just drive the Mach-E and Model Y around at "city" speeds, the range will be surprising similar. The Mach-E larger battery may be enough to actually tip the scales its way, despite the aero (and battery weight) handicap.

Fun BEV wars ahead...
 



 









Advertisement


Top