No more road trips with our Mach-E. A 2 hour drive to Joshua Tree turns into a 3 hour drive.

[Kamuelaflyer]

Are there any rules or requirements on where and how the dealer fast chargers going to be placed/used? Can the dealers place all their chargers in their delivery area and not make any available to the public? Or lock them up when they close daily?

No. The requirements are that the DCFC station (or stations as the case may be) need to be available 24/7 to the public. The mx DCFC would be unavailable to the public though.

Someone with a better memory or faster internet access atm might be able to give the exact wording.

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[RickMachE]

Tesla is adding 3-4000 Superchargers EVERY 3 month, as of now it has over 46000 SC world wide. In comparison, here's EA's plan for 2025:

"Dubbed the Boost Plan, it aims for more than 1,800 DC fast-charging stations, and a total of 10,000 individual connectors, by 2025"

This is just sad. Sorry to say the discrepency will only grow much wider, not smaller.

As noted by @devmach-e, this is a ridiculous comparison for several reasons.

Part of the problem with the pace of EA’s installation lies with the structure of the dieselgate settlement that created EA in the first place. They aren’t free to build wherever they want. There’s a plan they have to follow that is subject to oversight by the various states that were part of the settlement. A plan that requires spending X amount of money every 2.5 years, and also revise those plans every 2.5 years.

OMG, knowledge. Don't you know that facts shouldn't be posted?

Well they make a money on the electricity, just like they make money on petroleum today. That’s how they make a profit. Right now you’re paid $.43 a kilowatt hour, which is probably 3 to 4 times what they pay for the electricity.
My point is that the battery technology, the charging technology, the infrastructure technology will all improve dramatically in the next 20 years because that’s what everyone’s going to be driving for the future. Electric vehicles are getting all the development and all of the investment right now.
Tesla had to build an infrastructure, because there was literally nothing out there. And as soon as Tesla starts allowing regular EVs to use their network for profit, it’s going to make the infrastructure even better right now.
The car companies are not involved in the fuel business for their vehicles, so it’s antithetical for them to start now.

As noted, they are not making much, if any profit, much of the time.

I don't believe that is correct. The power companies have different tiers for high power draws, and depending on how many pumps are in use they could be losing money per kW.

Crap, we agree again!

Are there any rules or requirements on where and how the dealer fast chargers going to be placed/used? Can the dealers place all their chargers in their delivery area and not make any available to the public? Or lock them up when they close daily?

Yes, there are rules and requirements, including that the chargers are available to the public 24/7. They cannot be locked up at all. And ones for delivery are separate as I recall. Of course the actual contract with the dealer will be quite specific.

 

[roamtheworld]

The whole things boils down to money. In every Tesla you buy, a portion of that sales prices goes to the SC network (remember, originally charging was included). It was part of their business plan. They understood that no one would by a car they couldn't re-fuel. For over 100 years non-Tesla automakers didn't have to include re-fueling infrastructure as part of the manufacturing expense. There is absolutely no reason for them to start now. The only reason they are building EVs is because people are demanding them. There isn't any altruistic motive. They could care less if we transition to electric. Oh, they will market how they are saving the planet and fighting climate change and give you that feel good feeling, but it is all BS. The only reason Electrify America exists is because VW was legally forced. The fact that not even their own vehicles have Plug and Charge proves their lack of support.

Unfortunately right now non-Tesla companies are struggling to find a business case for DCFC. That is why they are uncovered and in the back of parking lots, anything else would just compound the losses. For this to work we are going to have to see more partnerships like GM, EVgo and Pilot/Flying J that leverage the existing Gas Station infrastructure. GM makes the cars, EVgo provides the equipment/ know how and Pilot/Flying J provides the location. DCFC needs to be treated as a loss leader just like gas. It is there to get the consumer in your store/restaurant where you can generate a profit.

Until the money thing gets figured out, I feel we will be in for some growing pains. So buckle up buttercup

I have stated the same in this forum and other EV brand forums.
They have lots of creative options for L2 charger placement like parking garages and apartment complexes but longer travel will require places like Pilot/Flying J to make to easier to travel longer distances. Getting food and using bathrooms will make up most of the time used and having more locations will lesson the need for 80%+ "fill ups" because another 50 miles or less another DCFC will be available to use.
Gas stations still make most income from selling drinks and food not gasoline/diesel.

Yes, there are rules and requirements, including that the chargers are available to the public 24/7. They cannot be locked up at all. And ones for delivery are separate as I recall. Of course the actual contract with the dealer will be quite specific.

Ford and other car companies have stated that at least one DCFC will be available 24/7 for customers. https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/
"At a minimum, Model e Elite dealers will need to install two high-powered DC fast chargers and a level 2 charging station, as well as offer at least one DC fast charger available for the public to use." and "Model E Certified dealers are only required to install one DC fast charger, and it must be made available for public use."

 

[devmach-e]

As noted by @devmach-e, this is a ridiculous comparison for several reasons.

devmach-e said:

Part of the problem with the pace of EA’s installation lies with the structure of the dieselgate settlement that created EA in the first place. They aren’t free to build wherever they want. There’s a plan they have to follow that is subject to oversight by the various states that were part of the settlement. A plan that requires spending X amount of money every 2.5 years, and also revise those plans every 2.5 years.

OMG, knowledge. Don't you know that facts shouldn't be posted?

I know, It's like I'm new to the Internet... I would promise to never do it again, but this *is* the Internet and we know that promises from semi-anonymous users on the Internet are worth their weight in bitcoin...

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

I know, It's like I'm new to the Internet... I would promise to never do it again, but this *is* the Internet and we know that promises from semi-anonymous users on the Internet are worth their weight in bitcoin...

You didn’t post a cat ‍ or dog picture. Therefore anything posted is suspect.

 

[devmach-e]

You didn’t post a cat ‍ or dog picture. Therefore anything posted is suspect.

Here ya go.

 

[Blue highway]

Well they make a money on the electricity, just like they make money on petroleum today. That’s how they make a profit. Right now you’re paid $.43 a kilowatt hour, which is probably 3 to 4 times what they pay for the electricity.
My point is that the battery technology, the charging technology, the infrastructure technology will all improve dramatically in the next 20 years because that’s what everyone’s going to be driving for the future. Electric vehicles are getting all the development and all of the investment right now.
Tesla had to build an infrastructure, because there was literally nothing out there. And as soon as Tesla starts allowing regular EVs to use their network for profit, it’s going to make the infrastructure even better right now.
The car companies are not involved in the fuel business for their vehicles, so it’s antithetical for them to start now.

Tesla will never open their charging network unless forced by legal means. It is THE biggest competitive advantage they have. If every EV maker could use it, it makes lots of other EV's more compelling....and Teslas less so. It's just not gonna happen short of legal coercion.

 

[AZBill]

Any word on when those 350's are going in? I'd be happy to see a few stalls on the way to Flagstaff from the valley. Plug share etc doesn't show anything from Anthem to the Flagstaff Walmart sadly. I havn't signed up for Ford's charging yet, but havn't planned a trip yet as we got WAY too much snow for me to bother with over the weekend. I saw some 350's in Sedona are listed but I'm not side tracking as much as that.


Which is why I'm on the wait list for the ever so fugly LightYear2. Because. Phoenix. Skip the charging, get the sun burn.

What battery do you have? I can make Phoenix to Flag in both my Bolt and Mach E. In fact I drove the Bolt to Flag in January a couple of years ago with my old battery Limited to 90%. Temps were in the 30s and it was snowing on the way back.

I drove my CR1 with ER battery, to the Grand Canyon and did not charge until Williams, with 33% battery left. That was in the summer, but I drove 75mph most of the way.

There is a 50kw ChargePoint at the Flagstaff airport exit.

 

[roamtheworld]

Tesla will never open their charging network unless forced by legal means. It is THE biggest competitive advantage they have. If every EV maker could use it, it makes lots of other EV's more compelling....and Teslas less so. It's just not gonna happen short of legal coercion.

So what is this all about then?
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-v4-supercharger-all-ev-charging/
or this https://www.teslarati.com/non-tesla-supercharger-pilot-united-states-launch/

 

[azerik]

What battery do you have? I can make Phoenix to Flag in both my Bolt and Mach E. In fact I drove the Bolt to Flag in January a couple of years ago with my old battery Limited to 90%. Temps were in the 30s and it was snowing on the way back.

I drove my CR1 with ER battery, to the Grand Canyon and did not charge until Williams, with 33% battery left. That was in the summer, but I drove 75mph most of the way.

There is a 50kw ChargePoint at the Flagstaff airport exit.

I’ve got a Awd with the extra range. Good to know about the Pullman charger, that’s literally 3 miles from my cabin in Kachina, I’ll leverage that in a pinch. Currently my Gom comes up at 250. Avg is 3.3~3.7. But I haven’t done much freeway with the car since I got it just a couple weeks ago.

I couldn’t have charged if I brought the MME to this mess. Lost at least 3 trees.

 

[Blue highway]

So what is this all about then?
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-magic-dock-v4-supercharger-all-ev-charging/
or this https://www.teslarati.com/non-tesla-supercharger-pilot-united-states-launch/

First off - Tesla doesn't say anything in that article its speculation on the authors part.

Secondly, it's clear that they will be posturing on this.

They can say "see our network is open! we are playing nice" when in reality they will slow roll the deployment for many years.

Whadda ya say, Let's reconnect in a year and see how broad the roll out is.

 

[roamtheworld]

First off - Tesla doesn't say anything in that article its speculation on the authors part.

Secondly, it's clear that they will be posturing on this.

They can say "see our network is open! we are playing nice" when in reality they will slow roll the deployment for many years.

Whadda ya say, Let's reconnect in a year and see how broad the roll out is.

Anything Tesla does will take extra time if it doesn't benefit them directly. So no argument from me about timing as they aren't in any hurry in the US. Europe forced the issue with CCS so they acted.
Now having money thrown in your face might impact the rollout.
The real kicker is they make their own chargers in NY and aren't really dependent on anyone else to make the changes needed. They are in the drivers seat.
Agreed to check back in a year to check progress.

 

[Blue highway]

Anything Tesla does will take extra time if it doesn't benefit them directly. So no argument from me about timing as they aren't in any hurry in the US. Europe forced the issue with CCS so they acted.
Now having money thrown in your face might impact the rollout.
The real kicker is they make their own chargers in NY and aren't really dependent on anyone else to make the changes needed. They are in the drivers seat.
Agreed to check back in a year to check progress.

Just for clarity, I do not think opening up their charging network is an economic benefit.... it looks like an economic loser.

Here is why... Their biggest selling advantage is their charge network. They erase that if it is open to competitors. AND, the profit from one car is much > than the profit from a bunch of chargers. It's hard to know for sure, but it looks like the Supercharger network runs at breakeven at best and may actually lose a little money...

 

[azerik]

You've seen Supercharger prices right? They're far from the going rate per kW. Why not add a 'third party access tax' on top of each charge or charge a little more per kW for third party access. Those pennies add up. Like Visa transaction fees. Little here and there becomes a source of income once everyone is hooked. So much so Tesla could probably bring back free charging for Tesla cars on the backs of the persons accessing the chargers via third parties.

 

[mkhuffman]

Just for clarity, I do not think opening up their charging network is an economic benefit.... it looks like an economic loser.

Here is why... Their biggest selling advantage is their charge network. They erase that if it is open to competitors. AND, the profit from one car is much > than the profit from a bunch of chargers. It's hard to know for sure, but it looks like the Supercharger network runs at breakeven at best and may actually lose a little money...

Maybe they will install one token CSS charger per location in a few states and then be done. It is really strange if they do it at all, though, unless they feel they really can make money by doing it. Maybe they have a way for them to be more profitable than the competition like EA.

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