Range anxiety after two days of driving

imstriker

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Just scrolled through this thread quickly and I think everything has been answered, but I'll add my two cents from EV ownership.

My 2013 LEAF has a heat pump (yippee) and I would say it is completely worthless in this situation. We have been down in the single digits and my normal 50+ range around town was down to about 24 yesterday with 80% charge. The heat pump helps in the middle range, around 40-60, but does not help down this low.

Don't forget that Li-ION is also less effective in cold. Even if I cut the heat off and survive on heated seats (my son is really going to miss the rear heated), it is still loses a lot of range this cold.
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Shayne

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unlikely that heat pump works very well at minus 20F. furthermore, those heat pumps are failing left and right as reported on the Tesla owner forums.
Failing heat pumps? Not the engineering marvel of the century? Nobody has engineers but Tesla if you did not know ;) . Not just at -20F it won't be much good at the temps of the OP either.

Good example for when road tripping below freezing temps that the 80 to 90 DCFC will come in handy/required. Owners should be able to sit and get it to 100% in a pinch and of course in a time frame that makes it usable/doable. Wish there was no temperature impact when it comes to lithium ion batteries but that is just not the current case. Our 2031's should have it figured out better.
I mean... it's physics, not magic. It does. Nobody would do a heat pump if it didn't increase efficiency, they cost more. VW does them, Hyundai/Kia does them, Nissan does them. True controlled tests show the efficiency gain.
To a bit below freezing I agree a heat pump is a bonus but only above -10F (-20C). With the MMEx's range it does not matter too much until you get to the temps where the heat pump no longer does much. Still a problem and one that needs to be and will be improved on. I heard a rumor they are contemplating a heat pump for the GT. Maybe the engineering will be slick enough it can be retro fitted into earlier models? (as a cost obviously). Limitations are mostly imposed when those -10's hit and a heat pump may not be even worth the cost to many?
 

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Somebody posted this image. I am really anxious about my upcoming purchase. The used posted it was -10 degree outside. I understand temperature affects range but How low can range be at 91% charge. ? This is not good!!!!
There can be many reasons. Was there any pre-conditionning done? we don't know who cold it was, do we have the car history?

It's a known fact that batteries will give you less range in winter, but there are many ways you can help circumvent that. When I got my car at the DealerShip (was in a Garage) it was at 100% with 340kms on it. I got home, left my car outside at about -10 degrees, next day, I was down to 200 km at 90% battery. I setup my pre-conditionning on week-days before I bring my daugther to daycare, and just that gave me back about 40km. When I left this morning and got in my car at 8:20, my car was heated up, my battery was conditionned and I was now at 240km at 90%.
 

PeeCee

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Rear wheel drive works just fine. Some of the four wheel drive confidence is unwarranted. If the weather sucks and driving carelessly, no winter tires or four wheel drive shall bail me out.

Currently charging at home with 110V/Ford mobile charger. Awaiting 220v install in a couple of weeks. Charged a bit at work - we have 2 EATON free chargers if no one is charging, and today being the weekend, got lucky!

Preconditioning works from home. Stopped at gym on the way back and was freezing again. Maybe solar panel glass roof can help in future with climate control when parked.
Four Wheel Drive helped me out a bunch of times when there's winter storms. It's not just about the driving aspect, it's about actually being able to leave home. When there's a good storm and your driveway wasn't plowed yet, or some of the streets, you have way less chances of getting stuck, especially with a heavy SUV. You do slip a lot less also when changing lanes and turning. My wife has a Civic and I used to have a four wheel Lancer and you could easily feel the difference when there was at least 1 inch of snow on the roads and it was still snowing. You feel much more in control and confident in a four wheel than a two wheel. I'm not going to buy a two wheel anytime soon. - For sure Winter Tires also change a lot, but I made sure my wife has good winter tires and I was driving her Civic since August while waiting for the MME and I saw the difference still with great winter tires.
 

s7davis

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Honestly this is why the range display itself is useless. I wish we had the ability to turn it off altogether and just see the % alone.
What is the difference between what you see when you fill an ICE vehicle with gas telling showing you can go 430 miles on a Full Tank when we all know that is absolutely wrong unless you have a hybrid vehicle.

The EV do the exact same thing but their max range is about half what a ICE vehicle can go. It is all about driving patterns, weather, auxillary equipment being used. After awhile it will start noticing your driving pattern and increase do not pay attention to that SOC/range reading unless you are getting close to needing to be charged. If you just look at the range constantly you will do nothing but stress yourself out and wonder if you made the right choice to go into an EV or not.

We are all at a point going into an EV that we need to retrain ourselves on how we drive and what to expect from going form an ICE to EV. Right now you are in the stages of readjusting to the new style of driving.
 


Rabidsquirrel22

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I heard a rumor they are contemplating a heat pump for the GT. Maybe the engineering will be slick enough it can be retro fitted into earlier models? (as a cost obviously). Limitations are mostly imposed when those -10's hit and a heat pump may not be even worth the cost to many?
Where did you hear this rumor? I'd like it to be true since I will be getting a GT, but this is the first I've heard of it.
 

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I mean... it's physics, not magic. It does. Nobody would do a heat pump if it didn't increase efficiency, they cost more. VW does them, Hyundai/Kia does them, Nissan does them. True controlled tests show the efficiency gain.
With regard to the original post about range at -10F a heat pump absolutely won’t help. It actually would hurt if you ran a heat pump when really cold. Here is why:
Above 40F, a heat pump can transfer 3 units of heat for every 1 unit of electricity (300% efficient). Below about 25F, heat pumps are less than 100% efficient. So 1 unit of electricity transfers less than 1 unit of heat.
Resistive heating element are basically 100% efficient, so 1kW-hr of electricity generates 1kW-hr of heat. Running a heat pump below 25F would drain your battery faster than a resistive heater.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Four Wheel Drive helped me out a bunch of times when there's winter storms. It's not just about the driving aspect, it's about actually being able to leave home. When there's a good storm and your driveway wasn't plowed yet, or some of the streets, you have way less chances of getting stuck
this is, for me in winter, the main concern point actually. In IT they talk about broadband's "last mile problem" - super-high bandwidth to a central place, but then from that central place to your house, it's garbage or non-existent.

If you haven't lived in a snowy area, you don't think about snow plowing, but I see this on a regular basis in Ohio... I live on a side street off a main feeder road into the subdivision, and the feeder road and main road that the feeder road connects to get plowed, but my side street does not. This means my biggest issues are driveway and my immediate street... if I can do that under quarter mile, then I get to the plowed feeder street, and I'm set. (This is a money-related choice on the part of the city, I believe... and of course me being lazy/cheap in the case of an unplowed driveway.)

my gf lives immediately off a feeder street in a much smaller subdivision, so at she never has this issue, she has the "plowed in at the end of the driveway" problem, where the city plow just shoves the snow over (it's gotta go somewhere after all) and the end of the driveway is this big pile of now compressed (and thus heavier, harder to plow) snow. That's it's own special kind of pain in the ass, and will be a concern in the Mach-E like any other low-ish vehicle (it's a problem in both her C-Max and my Fusion today if I don't deal with it fast enough after a snowfall)...

those of you in warm climates, we don't want to hear from you on this ?

for the person in Alaska (I forget who it is - someone is though), I know you're rolling your eyes. Sorry. ?
 

wareagle1440

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Bearded Tesla Guy just dropped a video he was driving in 20 degree weather and got around 202 miles.
So again, anything with sub-zero temperatures? Because there is a 30 degree gap between -10 and 20 degrees? I'm not trying to be rude. I genuinely don't care which is better between an MME and a model Y. Everyone buys what they prefer. But if you are going to categorically say I am wrong, then please cite a source or two if you have it. For instance, I have found several articles, most from HVAC companies, which state that heat pumps begin to suffer in efficiency between 25-30 degrees (https://asm-air.com/heat-pump/what-temperature-is-a-heat-pump-not-effective/). As someone that has a father in law with a heat pump in central MN, he seems to mirror this which is why he went with a ground source heat pump. I tend to trust him since he is an electrical engineer. Also I've seen how my own ICE lost efficiency in negative temperatures during the three years I lived in MN. Also the average temperature from Clifton, NJ compared to somewhere like Minneapolis, is about 18 degrees warmer in Clifton, NJ. So you're not comparing apples to apples as was noted by the midwesterner who experienced -10 degrees.

So as I stated from my knowledge, I can't imagine a heat pump would save much if any energy at that kind of cold found at -10. If you have something to actually cite, then please do. Otherwise it's ok to be wrong. Happens to all of us multiple times a day. unless you are here to just stir things up.
 
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those of you in warm climates, we don't want to hear from you on this ?
Hey! We get snow.* and it was cold here yesterday. Down into the low 50s for the high. We have it hard too! :p

*on top of 13,803 ft tall Mauna Kea.
 

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With regard to the original post about range at -10F a heat pump absolutely won’t help. It actually would hurt if you ran a heat pump when really cold. Here is why:
Above 40F, a heat pump can transfer 3 units of heat for every 1 unit of electricity (300% efficient). Below about 25F, heat pumps are less than 100% efficient. So 1 unit of electricity transfers less than 1 unit of heat.
Resistive heating element are basically 100% efficient, so 1kW-hr of electricity generates 1kW-hr of heat. Running a heat pump below 25F would drain your battery faster than a resistive heater.
That is not true for modern automotive heat pumps.
 

Orangefirefish

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Just scrolled through this thread quickly and I think everything has been answered, but I'll add my two cents from EV ownership.

My 2013 LEAF has a heat pump (yippee) and I would say it is completely worthless in this situation. We have been down in the single digits and my normal 50+ range around town was down to about 24 yesterday with 80% charge. The heat pump helps in the middle range, around 40-60, but does not help down this low.

Don't forget that Li-ION is also less effective in cold. Even if I cut the heat off and survive on heated seats (my son is really going to miss the rear heated), it is still loses a lot of range this cold.
Hehe, exactly, heat pump won’t do much when there’s no heat to pump! At those temps regularly... EVs aren’t the greatest idea. I guess neither is going anywhere but that’s a different story ?
 

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Where did you hear this rumor? I'd like it to be true since I will be getting a GT, but this is the first I've heard of it.
I've heard this too and it was exactly what you described -- a rumor. Although, wishful thinking may be an even better description.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Hey! We get snow.* and it was cold here yesterday. Down into the low 50s for the high. We have it hard too! :p

*on top of 13,803 ft tall Mauna Kea.
WHAT PART OF "WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU ON THIS" DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

jerk

?
 

BlueMach

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What is the difference between what you see when you fill an ICE vehicle with gas telling showing you can go 430 miles on a Full Tank when we all know that is absolutely wrong unless you have a hybrid vehicle.

The EV do the exact same thing but their max range is about half what a ICE vehicle can go. It is all about driving patterns, weather, auxillary equipment being used. After awhile it will start noticing your driving pattern and increase do not pay attention to that SOC/range reading unless you are getting close to needing to be charged. If you just look at the range constantly you will do nothing but stress yourself out and wonder if you made the right choice to go into an EV or not.

We are all at a point going into an EV that we need to retrain ourselves on how we drive and what to expect from going form an ICE to EV. Right now you are in the stages of readjusting to the new style of driving.
I still believe that not having the range display will do more to alleviate range anxiety than having it. I drive my BEV today without a range display, I do not want a range display on screen in my new BEV.
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