yngwenli

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Ford is getting $7,500 from the tax credit (again, not a rebate) from you the buyer because you as the buyer are paying this much, then receiving it back from government through your tax return. The tax credit was never designed to be a benefit to consumers, it is designed as a pass-through to the manufacturers to incentivize their transition to EV production. This is why it is limited to a fixed number of vehicles per carmaker.

Net means net. No need to confuse matters by throwing in a bunch of other numbers that aren't affected by the tax credit. If MSRP is not lowered when the credits expire, the net price of the car to you the buyer increases by $7,500 because you'd be paying the same MSRP and not getting it back through your tax return. The arithmetic couldn't be simpler.

If you don't believe me, then consider what happened when the credits expired for GM. For the rest of that model year GM lowered the price by a like amount through cash incentives, and when the next model year rolled around, they lowered the MSRP of the car to where the net price was virtually the same as it was net the tax credit. Because that's how it works. Ford will do the same.

I think you are really overthinking it and claiming speculation as pure facts when we simply don't know.

At the end of the day, they will factor knowing the fed tax credit will go down, but they will also consider the market, competition, how much they planned to raise the price by for 2023 and see what all the other competitors do.

Tesla has lost the tax credit for MANY years and has no problem raising prices at all. We also know that all EVs are probably more expensive to make now with supply chain issues and they are completely sold out for practically any new releases (outside of the Bolt). Higher cost is something they have to eat or raise prices to recoup, whether the tax credit is there or not. Add in $5-$7/gal gas in many states and EVs are even more compelling.

As for the Bolt and GM, being a prior owner, the MSRP of that thing was still MASSIVELY overpriced when the tax credit ran out so GM offered tons of incentives to move the car since the car was much lower in demand when it was out so GM lowered things insanely more than what the tax credit did (did you own a Bolt yourself?). I got well over $10k off MSRP+tax credit+Costco+state. There were folks who bought Bolts new in 2021 for < $20k after all incentives so it's not just the fed tax credit because there was none already in 2021.

Bottom line is supply/demand of the MME is key on what they will do.

Being back on topic, we'll see if this update fixes the HVBJB issue and whether it'll affect pricing, demand, lemon laws, ADM, inventory/supply. I think the battery fires affected the Bolt much more and GM has been cutting prices since there is just less demand for that vehicle (too old tech, slow charging, too small, not luxurious mostly).
 

Secret Sauce

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I think you are really overthinking it and claiming speculation as pure facts when we simply don't know.

At the end of the day, they will factor knowing the fed tax credit will go down, but they will also consider the market, competition, how much they planned to raise the price by for 2023 and see what all the other competitors do.

Tesla has lost the tax credit for MANY years and has no problem raising prices at all. We also know that all EVs are probably more expensive to make now with supply chain issues and they are completely sold out for practically any new releases (outside of the Bolt). Higher cost is something they have to eat or raise prices to recoup, whether the tax credit is there or not. Add in $5-$7/gal gas in many states and EVs are even more compelling.

As for the Bolt and GM, being a prior owner, the MSRP of that thing was still MASSIVELY overpriced when the tax credit ran out so GM offered tons of incentives to move the car since the car was much lower in demand when it was out so GM lowered things insanely more than what the tax credit did (did you own a Bolt yourself?). I got well over $10k off MSRP+tax credit+Costco+state. There were folks who bought Bolts new in 2021 for < $20k after all incentives so it's not just the fed tax credit because there was none already in 2021.

Bottom line is supply/demand of the MME is key on what they will do.

Being back on topic, we'll see if this update fixes the HVBJB issue and whether it'll affect pricing, demand, lemon laws, ADM, inventory/supply. I think the battery fires affected the Bolt much more and GM has been cutting prices since there is just less demand for that vehicle (too old tech, slow charging, too small, not luxurious mostly).
Funny you should accuse me of overthinking when my point is so extremely simple, and you're subjecting this to so much completely unnecessary analysis. Of course they will "consider the market." This is the entire point of what I'm saying. Ford is hardly alone in the EV market. They have to consider the competition, and it's getting stiffer every day. Raising the net price of the car by $7,500 from one year to the next is commercial suicide. That's why GM didn't do it, and neither will Ford.

The Bolt was never overpriced, and certainly not "massively." From the day it was introduced it was the least expensive long-range EV on the market and it remains so nearly six years later. That's why I bought one in 2016 and owned it for more than five years. Not that this makes a single bit of difference to whether what I said is true. It is, either way.

As you pointed out yourself, it makes no sense to talk about Tesla and the tax credits because they expired for them years ago. Their pricing model has nothing whatsoever to do with tax credits.
 

mdraptor

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It actually does matter because this is wrong. The law is NO new car can be sold with an active recall. Not just delivered. People keep spreading this misinformation, it’s insane. An easy search will tell you you’re wrong.
I bought my MME CR1 last Monday 6/20, just waiting on recall to be completed,
 


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Raising the net price of the car by $7,500 from one year to the next is commercial suicide. That's why GM didn't do it, and neither will Ford.
You’ve mentioned this concept of Ford raising the net price of the car by $7500 and I confess I’m not following. If Ford decides to raise the price at some point after the tax rebate is gone, where does $7500 come into play? If they wanted consumers to effectively pay the same price they would lower the price by $7500. But if they choose not to do that I don’t see the relevance of the $7500 number anymore. What am I missing?
 

kennethjk

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I read this in the NY times. Might have been posted before

“Ford said it expected the update to be distributed by the beginning of July. The defect was discovered by analyzing diagnostic data that Mach-E S.U.V.s transmit to Ford. No fires have resulted from the issue, Ford said.”

seems to be a bit different than what the CEO said regarding demo’s.

hopefully fix comes out soon.
 

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I read this in the NY times. Might have been posted before

“Ford said it expected the update to be distributed by the beginning of July. The defect was discovered by analyzing diagnostic data that Mach-E S.U.V.s transmit to Ford. No fires have resulted from the issue, Ford said.”

seems to be a bit different than what the CEO said regarding demo’s.

hopefully fix comes out soon.
Demo cars get a lot of use and abuse, so they’re phoning back at least a few extreme drives routinely. But honestly, all our cars are phoning Dearborn all the time.
 

Aramis76

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This thread got too big to sift through but what i'm worried with is that this software "fix" will prevent this from happening, but will they also replace the hardware or leave everyone with "weakened" or "bridled" cars for good?

Edit:

I see from reading the actual recall doc that it's not reducing power permanently but only if it senses high temps on the contactors, so that's not as bad then.
 
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BigMach-E

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This thread got too big to sift through but what i'm worried with is that this software "fix" will prevent this from happening, but will they also replace the hardware or leave everyone with "weakened" or "bridled" cars for good?

Edit:

I see from reading the actual recall doc that it's not reducing power permanently but only if it senses high temps on the contactors, so that's not as bad then.
Yes, but if it happens, and your contactors get pitted, you will be throtled from there on out. Issue is, no one really knows how malformed their contactors already are.

I agree, temp sensing, or some method to infer electrical resistance and temp is a good thing, and should be built in. I also agree that if levels for the part look like it's about to fail, it's much better to limit current, limp you home and to the dealership then to leave you stranded. I'm concerned about the performance hit we will all be taking, so I am going to wait until I hear the real world consensus of the software's operation, because Ford is unlikely to tell us if they are throtling the cars, or even what the software actually does, and I under what set of circumstances. I, for one, have been beta testing far too often. Everyone who bought Job 1 have been beta testing, and usually, with beta testers, there is a little more transparency. If Ford wants us to sign an NDA, but they also want to give us more real information, fine. However, at this point, they leave users to just guess as to what they are programming and how it affects the car.
 

macchiaz-o

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If Ford wants us to sign an NDA, but they also want to give us more real information, fine.
Perhaps those in the know cannot share more real information with you. NDAs, employment contracts, etc, etc.

this point, they leave users to just guess as to what they are programming and how it affects the car.
They've shared more info publicly than I would have expected at this point, considering the solutions for OTA and dealer installs aren't ready for public release. Until they are released, the details of those first updates are subject to change.
 

BigMach-E

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Perhaps those in the know cannot share more real information with you. NDAs, employment contracts, etc, etc.



They've shared more info publicly than I would have expected at this point, considering the solutions for OTA and dealer installs aren't ready for public release. Until they are released, the details of those first updates are subject to change.
That's my point. I understand the legal reasons to slow roll information, and I also understand that individuals frequently cannot give information due to their role. However, it's not going to make me interested in buying another Ford if the intended fix for this car from Ford is to throttle performance as a preventative measure, regularly, and not acknowledge that's what the software does.

I know it's supposition at this point until we have the data set, but I bought the car because of the fact it was quick. If it isn't quick, and it also (thus far for me) is the least reliable vehicle I have ever owned in aggregate, I'm just not interested in keeping it.
 
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They did my blue cruise update when they did the windshield recall and the computer crashed while doing the update. It was inoperable for 15 days.
I’m so sorry to hear that! I guess they were telling me the truth. How is your car now?
 
 




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