zhackwyatt

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only time I ever had the feeling, will my car start? was a 1972 Mazda RX2 in cold weather. the Car did not enjoy starting in 10 degrees. The other pice of shit car I had at the time , a Pontiac Astre wasn’t much better but it did start.

I learned my lesson from those two cars.

since 1976 all the cars I have had owned have been well built and no issues.
I guarantee you others had the same cars and they had times they wouldn't start. Same thing here, I don't see a difference.
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kennethjk

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I guarantee you others had the same cars and they had times they wouldn't start. Same thing here, I don't see a difference.
The difference was every Mazda had that issue, I know a far cry from the MME but if the part is a bad part, will it not eventually happen to all of us that like to drive with a WOT at times? I hope not And only time will tell.

If you are saying that people had issues with the same cars I had no problems with, yes you are right but did every one of those cars have a bad part like the MME has. i do not know.. Do some cars breakdown because they are driven harder than others, probably.

what we do know is that the part in the MME is not “robust” enough. That’s a problem.

do I think every morning, will my car start?, no, but when I take a long trip it does enter my mind. If my wife takes the car late at night do I think about it, absolutely. just Something different to deal with.
 

buzznwood

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My personal feeling is that software is stage 1 and hardware stage 2, when stage 2 happens is the question And hopefully burnt part doesn’t happen to many of us until stage 2 happens and part is replaced..
I applaud your optimism, but the reason for going with a software fix is to avoid doing any stage 2, and just limit it to a small number of warranty repairs only. Of course it all depend on what the software fix does when it comes to any throttling, do we get a notification that it has occurred (possible) or does it just neuter your vehicle with no notification and you only get a fix with new hardware when the more observant owners go to dealers complaining about lost performance.

It will be fine if its the former, but I suspect with Ford currently swimming in a mess of recalls across multiple models it will be later. Unless you record all you 0-60s and monitor all your DCFC charging curves how many owners will notice a reduced performance over time as you relays break down?

I never got my GTPE for performance reasons which is thankful as at freeway speeds it is a performance turd :( I have no complaints in the 0-60 department (apart from traction issues due to no the best OEM tire choice) so if the software fix impacts that I certainly won't be a happy camper and it is certainly something I will be keeping an eye on..
 

kennethjk

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I applaud your optimism, but the reason for going with a software fix is to avoid doing any stage 2, and just limit it to a small number of warranty repairs only. Of course it all depend on what the software fix does when it comes to any throttling, do we get a notification that it has occurred (possible) or does it just neuter your vehicle with no notification and you only get a fix with new hardware when the more observant owners go to dealers complaining about lost performance.

It will be fine if its the former, but I suspect with Ford currently swimming in a mess of recalls across multiple models it will be later. Unless you record all you 0-60s and monitor all your DCFC charging curves how many owners will notice a reduced performance over time as you relays break down?

I never got my GTPE for performance reasons which is thankful as at freeway speeds it is a performance turd :( I have no complaints in the 0-60 department (apart from traction issues due to no the best OEM tire choice) so if the software fix impacts that I certainly won't be a happy camper and it is certainly something I will be keeping an eye on..
trying to be optimistic, but I do realize Ford will probably try to take the easy way out and hopefully that’s enough and if not they may be forced to put new part in. I didn’t order a GTPE as I didn’t want to spend the extra money on a performance car when I already have one, so not so concerned about performance issues to my Premium as long as it’s minimal.
 


BMT1071

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The wheels may turn faster than you are giving credit but at any rate, they have known about this for >6 months.

Ford has seen many dozens of failed parts first hand to do post mortems... It's the positive contactor. Based on this, more robust parts have been developed and are available (see the part number changes earlier in the threads)

Insiders indicate that Ford leadership has changed direction.

The "recall" is SW only. There is no mention of actually replacing the bad parts with the new parts and this is the problem. I am sympathetic to the significant challenges of coming up with an additional 100K new parts on top of what is needed for production and the parts business. I am sympathetic to the cost and load on the dealers to do an actual parts change recall.

But I agree... let's be real. Ford has no plan to change the bad part in your car.
We do not know that there has been a design change, only that there is a new part number. The key phrase in the recall notice is "part to part variation". If there were a design deficiency the failure rate would be much higher than .5%. The number of cars with out of spec parts must be small based on the low fail rate.
 

nvabill

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We have at least until Jul 18 and then some, so I am sure we will surpass 159 pages for sure 😉
I think you are right! Do you realize there are 1512 comments in this one thread so far, that's a whole lot of reading?!
 

BMT1071

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"No reason to expect a performance reduction under normal operation."

This is why that assumption is completely wrong.

If resistance is detected across the relay, power will be reduced by the software as the resistance generates heat as current passes through... more current = more heat.

The problem with the assumption above is that it assumes, the resistance across the relay will somehow go back to factory original condition and the software will stop limiting power. This will never happen. Once damaged, the the resistance across the relay contacts will never go away. Said differently, once pitting occurs, there is resistance in the connection and the resistance will not go back to where it was before the pitting occurred. The only way to remove the resistance from the pitting, is to open up the hermetically sealed relay and clean the contactors... or replace the relay all together.

Otherwise, the software will protect the relay by limiting current... but the software will never give original power because once damage occurs, the contactor is permanently damaged... it does NOT heal its self.

Performance will be reduced permanently until the relay is replaced. THIS is why the software "fix" alone is unacceptable.
You are misunderstanding. Once the reduced power event occurs the car will go to the dealer for repair.
 

StillWaitingForMachE

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"No reason to expect a performance reduction under normal operation."

This is why that assumption is completely wrong.

If resistance is detected across the relay, power will be reduced by the software as the resistance generates heat as current passes through... more current = more heat.

The problem with the assumption above is that it assumes, the resistance across the relay will somehow go back to factory original condition and the software will stop limiting power. This will never happen. Once damaged, the the resistance across the relay contacts will never go away. Said differently, once pitting occurs, there is resistance in the connection and the resistance will not go back to where it was before the pitting occurred. The only way to remove the resistance from the pitting, is to open up the hermetically sealed relay and clean the contactors... or replace the relay all together.

Otherwise, the software will protect the relay by limiting current... but the software will never give original power because once damage occurs, the contactor is permanently damaged... it does NOT heal its self.

Performance will be reduced permanently until the relay is replaced. THIS is why the software "fix" alone is unacceptable.
Disclaimer: I am an engineer, but I am not an electrical engineer nor am I a materials scientist. Also I do not work for Ford fyi.

Okay now that that's out of the way, there's something you're missing:
Power, Resistance, and Temperature are all related.

Since resistance increases linearly as a function of temperature, you can use that relationship to find the temperature inside the connector. By monitoring temperature this way, the software should be able to throttle the current BEFORE you'd see material degradation beyond normal wear and tear occur. And when you back off the current, you also reduce the temperature, thus reducing the resistance again.

https://sciencing.com/happens-resistor-burns-up-8556222.html

Again, I could be wrong on this, as I don't work in electrical engineering or materials science, just chiming in with some tidbits I remember from those classes.
 

AKgrampy

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Disclaimer: I am an engineer, but I am not an electrical engineer nor am I a materials scientist. Also I do not work for Ford fyi.

Okay now that that's out of the way, there's something you're missing:
Power, Resistance, and Temperature are all related.

Since resistance increases linearly as a function of temperature, you can use that relationship to find the temperature inside the connector. By monitoring temperature this way, the software should be able to throttle the current BEFORE you'd see material degradation beyond normal wear and tear occur. And when you back off the current, you also reduce the temperature, thus reducing the resistance again.

https://sciencing.com/happens-resistor-burns-up-8556222.html

Again, I could be wrong on this, as I don't work in electrical engineering or materials science, just chiming in with some tidbits I remember from those classes.
You are correct. I also believe that arcing is the real culprit after the contacts get too hot. So if they get too hot, driving or charging, I believe there will be a control event to reduce temp so arcing does not occur or at least cause damage. Perhaps some grey bars right after DCFC or several WOT’s back to back. But who knows for sure until the software rolls out - not I!
 

Socalsp3

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Disclaimer: I am an engineer, but I am not an electrical engineer nor am I a materials scientist. Also I do not work for Ford fyi.

Okay now that that's out of the way, there's something you're missing:
Power, Resistance, and Temperature are all related.

Since resistance increases linearly as a function of temperature, you can use that relationship to find the temperature inside the connector. By monitoring temperature this way, the software should be able to throttle the current BEFORE you'd see material degradation beyond normal wear and tear occur. And when you back off the current, you also reduce the temperature, thus reducing the resistance again.

https://sciencing.com/happens-resistor-burns-up-8556222.html

Again, I could be wrong on this, as I don't work in electrical engineering or materials science, just chiming in with some tidbits I remember from those classes.
yes limits will be placed. the question is will we notice? no one knows for sure yet; imo most likely. charging speed will diminish especially during a long trip.
 

ZoNiE

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Undersized contactors perhaps?

My previous EV had a main bus fuse fail at 80 on the freeway. Yeah, it just dies, but just like any car, If the engine dies, you just coast to a stop. I was able to move over to the right gore area at an exit. Everything stayed on... except for the AC compressor...:confused:. It was a hot day.
 

chrisGT

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My previous EV had a main bus fuse fail at 80 on the freeway. Yeah, it just dies, but just like any car, If the engine dies, you just coast to a stop.
Not every EV will coast smoothly to a stop. My previous EV would not allow the motors to rotate and it would lock all four wheels when the computers died even without 1PD enabled. Not a fun thing to happen while driving on a freeway.

I don't know what the MME will do when the HVBJB fries while driving. It might brake hard if 1PD is enable. I don't know and I hope I will not find out.
 

jbooth

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I took mine in for bluecruise attempt #3 (dealer's #2, I count the failed/stuck OTA as #1). The R/O had the HVBJB on it. I don't expect it to get done but will report back if that somehow is done.

Oh and a messed up main wiper, which I discovered in last weeks heat and humidity as it fogged the departure-timed car up the instant the garage went up and my wife ran the wipers and I went, "hmmm did that just exit the glass and thwack the a-pillar? Yes, yes it did..." Something tells me it is *also* related to the glass recall reassembly which was poorly done.
 

tannerk89

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Disclaimer: I am an engineer, but I am not an electrical engineer nor am I a materials scientist. Also I do not work for Ford fyi.

Okay now that that's out of the way, there's something you're missing:
Power, Resistance, and Temperature are all related.

Since resistance increases linearly as a function of temperature, you can use that relationship to find the temperature inside the connector. By monitoring temperature this way, the software should be able to throttle the current BEFORE you'd see material degradation beyond normal wear and tear occur. And when you back off the current, you also reduce the temperature, thus reducing the resistance again.

https://sciencing.com/happens-resistor-burns-up-8556222.html

Again, I could be wrong on this, as I don't work in electrical engineering or materials science, just chiming in with some tidbits I remember from those classes.
I’m mechanical/manufacturing not EE. I work for an oem but not ford.. and I also don’t really know how the HVBJB/BECM is set up to have a well thought out theory, but I have been wondering if the contactors tolerance or parts expanding due to thermal expansion would allow chattering while the contractor closing that could lead to arcing either during 0 - WOT quick power release, or after heating due to DCFC. If this were the case the software update could be a change in timing of allowing power to flow after a few milliseconds delay to allow the contractor to fully close. That wouldn’t change performance, at least in a noticeable way. This might explain why older cars don’t seem to need new hardware (unless I missed an update stating they do) - and new cars are ok to release potentially without different software that’s being developed for affected vehicles.
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