Z-one

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2022
Threads
14
Messages
187
Reaction score
112
Location
Chicago
Vehicles
2022 Mache GTPE
Country flag
Bottom of 402 and onto 403.

(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the
22 date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered
23 into a written binding contract to purchase, a new
24 qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as de25
fined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue
1 Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date
2 of enactment of this Act), and
3 (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the
4 date of enactment of this Act,
5 such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form
6 and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Sec7
retary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as
8 having been placed in service on the day before the date
9 of enactment of this Act.
Seems to me Ford needs to open their orders today for 2023 and make it a written binding contract instead of an agreement to agree to work with a dealer and buy the car when it comes in.

Probably have 24-48 hours before you have to deal with the restrictions of the new bill.....
Sponsored

 

voxel

Well-Known Member
First Name
Nelson
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Threads
22
Messages
1,818
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
Vehicles
22 Mach-E 4X, 23 GC Limited
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
Gonna be a lot of buyers scrambling now to lock in reservations/orders for credits that are good under the old law that probably won't be under the new law. I just read a story that said Fisker is recommending people convert to non-refundable orders immediately to ensure they can get the full $7500 credit.

Probably half marketing, half truth.
A couple of future Fisker Ocean owners think you can claim the tax credit in the 2023 tax year but that's not what the transition rule is about. It moves the "placed in service date" back to 2022 so you can claim the old tax credit. Folks might be committing tax fraud soon :)
 

voxel

Well-Known Member
First Name
Nelson
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Threads
22
Messages
1,818
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
Vehicles
22 Mach-E 4X, 23 GC Limited
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
I think the most likely impact from this bill will actually be an increase in PHEV sales which will mostly qualify given their smaller battery sizes and are built in the USA already. Moreover, PHEVs are much easier for the average person to understand and do not require a fully built out charging infrastructure. Pure BEVs will instead move higher up the price chain as repeat buyers are likely and can afford it. Net result is a small improvement in overall emissions and lower GHG but overall impact on global warming will be negligible. Look it’s not all bad… just don’t buy or own any beachfront property and we are going to have some nice long summers and very short winters in the northeast. Probably a good idea to buy some land in VT or upstate Maine! :)
PHEVs are great. How many are assembled in the US with NA-source batteries? Probably zero. Assembled? Sorrento PHEV is made in Korea... also not RAV4 Prime, not Prius Prime, not Lexus PHEV, not X5 PHEV, etc. So probably zero again :)
 

machK

Active Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
28
Reaction score
33
Location
MO
Vehicles
98 F150
Country flag
The next question becomes. If you can use the old program based upon Order date, do you get the 7500$ or 3750 since Ford is crossing the 200k limit this quarter. This has become ridiculously complicated.
 

MachKet

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2022
Threads
2
Messages
482
Reaction score
428
Location
North
Vehicles
Ordered 2022 Mach E select AWD
Country flag
The next question becomes. If you can use the old program based upon Order date, do you get the 7500$ or 3750 since Ford is crossing the 200k limit this quarter. This has become ridiculously complicated.
It’s not that complicated, if you take delivery in 2022 you’re getting $7500 no matter what(pending your tax liability). Order date is not a binding contract. Fisker is side stepping this by providing a binding contract where you have to purchase the car when it comes in
 


Caulk-E

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tommy
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Threads
3
Messages
147
Reaction score
166
Location
Bay Area
Vehicles
2022 Mustang Mach-E Premium ER RWD
Country flag
It’s not that complicated, if you take delivery in 2022 you’re getting $7500 no matter what(pending your tax liability). Order date is not a binding contract. Fisker is side stepping this by providing a binding contract where you have to purchase the car when it comes in
Yeahhh…I would NEVER get into a binding contract with Fisker unless the car is right in front of me.
 

Z-one

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2022
Threads
14
Messages
187
Reaction score
112
Location
Chicago
Vehicles
2022 Mache GTPE
Country flag
The next question becomes. If you can use the old program based upon Order date, do you get the 7500$ or 3750 since Ford is crossing the 200k limit this quarter. This has become ridiculously complicated.
Bill says "treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date
of enactment of this Act."

So while I dont think it matters seems to me it is treated as if acquired within the next few days if the bill is signed.
 

voxel

Well-Known Member
First Name
Nelson
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Threads
22
Messages
1,818
Reaction score
1,662
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
Vehicles
22 Mach-E 4X, 23 GC Limited
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
The next question becomes. If you can use the old program based upon Order date, do you get the 7500$ or 3750 since Ford is crossing the 200k limit this quarter. This has become ridiculously complicated.
Even if Ford hits 200K this quarter they are allowed one more quarter at 100% then the phase out begins (50% for two quarters then 25% for two more).

The complication is "enactment of this Act" - there is some debate on whether it is signing or Jan 1, 2023.
 

Z-one

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2022
Threads
14
Messages
187
Reaction score
112
Location
Chicago
Vehicles
2022 Mache GTPE
Country flag
Even if Ford hits 200K this quarter they are allowed one more quarter at 100% then the phase out begins (50% for two quarters then 25% for two more).

The complication is "enactment of this Act" - there is some debate on whether it is signing or Jan 1, 2023.
Here is one view...

https://viewpoint.pwc.com/dt/us/en/..._7_change_in__US/72_determining_the_e_US.html


For US federal tax purposes, the enactment date is most often the date the President signs the bill into law. Enactment can occur in other ways, such as when Congress overrides a presidential veto. The key concept is that the full legislative process is complete (i.e., the law cannot be overturned without additional legislation). Future (i.e., not fully enacted) rate changes cannot be anticipated and should not be recognized.
 

mateo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Threads
6
Messages
228
Reaction score
339
Location
Chicago
Vehicles
2022 MME GT
Country flag
Even if Ford hits 200K this quarter they are allowed one more quarter at 100% then the phase out begins (50% for two quarters then 25% for two more).

The complication is "enactment of this Act" - there is some debate on whether it is signing or Jan 1, 2023.
Yes, the strangest scenario would be if in Q4 a manufacturer was going to be reduced to 50%. In that case (per verbatim reading of the Act), if you had a previously signed contract and took ownership of the car in 22'Q4, you'd get 50% but if you could wait until 23'Q1 for the same car you'd go back to 100% since it would be based on Q3 (day prior to enactment). :rolleyes:

Thankfully that doesn't apply to Ford, so the situation isn't as confusing as it could be.

I'm of the opinion that government subsidies are often necessary to jump start an industry where you need group-collective participation that otherwise won't occur in the free marketplace. To me, EV cars generally satisfy that condition, BUT the purchase rebates are the wrong lever IMO. Lasting updates to infrastructure is far more important than incentivizing car buying to low income people who don't buy new cars anyway.

I'd love to get rebates to update the electric in my house; I'm unable to take that with me when I move so it's a long term win for the community. However, I think it was limited to 150% of median income in this Act which is ridiculously low. In my area, that would be about a household salary cap of $60k. People with that salary generally don't even own houses.

I'd gladly give up my $7500 to buy a car in exchange for equivalent cost to upgrade my 100 amp panel, run a circuit to my detached garage, and install a charger.
 

Orangefirefish

Well-Known Member
First Name
SY
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Threads
9
Messages
268
Reaction score
384
Location
USA
Vehicles
N/A
Country flag
Sorry if this has been asked before- but does anyone know whether the battery packs in the MME or the F150L actually has enough North American content to qualify for the new credit? I thought I read somewhere that Ford was lobbying against that requirement because it was unclear if their cars would qualify.
 

jay1122

Well-Known Member
First Name
jay
Joined
Apr 11, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
293
Reaction score
259
Location
NJ
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach E select AWD
Country flag
I heard the new tax credit thing is the point of sale reduction. I really liked the idea compared to the current tax filing to get the $7500. Well, that is until recently trying to hunt down a bolt EUV for my sister when the NJchargeup $4000 rebate is active. A lot of dealers want a $2000 markup, citing you still get a decent $2k incentive after the markup. And you know what, people went for it. I feel the incentive just lines the dealer's pocket. Ended up having to place a custom order at MSRP. Luckily order date also counts for the rebate. I hope the $7500 incentive does not become the dealer's excuse for markup too.
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
TimCO
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Threads
54
Messages
9,298
Reaction score
10,812
Location
Colorado, USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E FE, 2023 Bronco Sport OB
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
I hope the $7500 incentive does not become the dealer's excuse for markup too.
It always has been to some degree, but they're even more of an excuse for a manufacturer MSRP markup (and/or incentive cash markdown/elimination).

Of course right now the market is so tight that they can pretty much name their price and find someone that'll pay it. It's a seller's market for sure. But for the most part, the tax credits end up passing through indirectly to the manufacturer. The politicians just like to structure them as a "customer credit" so people will think they're getting a special deal and are more likely to support the policy that way.
 

bp99

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
277
Reaction score
433
Location
Oregon
Vehicles
22 MME eAWD, 21 MME CA Route 1 (sold)
Country flag
I heard the new tax credit thing is the point of sale reduction. I really liked the idea compared to the current tax filing to get the $7500. Well, that is until recently trying to hunt down a bolt EUV for my sister when the NJchargeup $4000 rebate is active. A lot of dealers want a $2000 markup, citing you still get a decent $2k incentive after the markup. And you know what, people went for it. I feel the incentive just lines the dealer's pocket. Ended up having to place a custom order at MSRP. Luckily order date also counts for the rebate. I hope the $7500 incentive does not become the dealer's excuse for markup too.
Because our politicians are idiots. Subsidies to increase demand on a product in which supply already cannot keep up with demand does nothing but lead to price increases. The tax credits at this stage of EV market migration are nothing more than virtue signaling.

Nothing in this legislation increases supply. Nothing in this bill solves the regulations issues with ramping up domestic mineral extraction and refining. It does potentially increase demand of such, but without solving the overly rigid issues of actually doing it, will just puts additional price pressure on what little is done domestically. Adding a used car rebate does not put more BEVs on the road as they're already on the road not going anywhere. It just creates a screwed up market where two identical cars, but one that's had two owners versus one with a single owner have significantly different market values. With the removal of the domestic sales cap and implementation of price caps, it shifts the benefit from upstarts (Rivian, Lucid, Fisker) entering the market in which subsidies can help mitigate the higher costs of scaling production to the entrenched players such as Ford and GM that don't need help. It's more of political payback to the UAW than it is helping build an industry.
Sponsored

 
 




Top