Senate Bill Deal to Expand EV Tax Credits (7/27/2022)

[devmach-e]

With used EV price caps at $25K and incomes capped at $75K(?) the rule is solely for cheapo Bolts/Leafs.

This bill most definitely is trying to force carmakers to build EVs in the US and source their batteries in US + US free trade countries. I don't hate it but think it could be tweaked a little or start a year later so carmakers have time to ramp up.

That won't be the case forever. In 5 years, it could be MMEs, Teslas, Ariyas, Solterras, and a host of new cars just coming to market. And in 8 years it could be a Rivian, Lucid, or a Fisker.

Sponsored

 

[Mach1E]

If the tax credit's expire, people will gravitate more towards the ICE vehicles. Because the tax credits (more times than not) somewhat offset the extra cost to purchase an EV, many will purchase an ICE vehicle instead if these credits expire. I for one, will certainly look at my bottom dollar at the end of the day and it will most likely dictate my future purchases.

So in short, whether we agree or disagree with this Bill, it will undoubtedly spur more growth towards EVs in the very near future. That is the main intention of the Bill. The other side of the aisle mainly despise the "electric future" and many would rather see ICE live on and the Planet burn with it rather than see people get a tax credit to purchase an EV.

Seems we also disagree on the impact that long term credits have on the price we pay when we buy the car.

Short term rebates (that expire….. get ‘em while they last) actually create some urgency to buy something.

Long term rebates that last a decade with no limits……. It just becomes part of the price. Manufacturers can predictably expect the rebates and build them into their price structure.

Again, bottom line, these will not result in lower prices for the consumer (long term) and will do nothing but line the pockets of the manufacturers…….. who DO NOT need the $$ (record profits) and don’t need the incentive to focus on EVs (they have already committed).

You can’t compare this to the short term 200k credits we have now. They served their purpose.

 

[Mach1E]

That won't be the case forever. In 5 years, it could be MMEs, Teslas, Ariyas, Solterras, and a host of new cars just coming to market. And in 8 years it could be a Rivian, Lucid, or a Fisker.

And maybe in 5 years the government could look at the used EV market and see if it needs a boost.

Literally zero reason to throw billions of dollars at it today to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

This is just another version of “printing money.” They’re printing “$4000 gift cards” for used BEVs.

And when you print money…….. prices of everything go up. Inflation 101. Increase the money supply.

 

[DennisD]

Seems we also disagree on the impact that long term credits have on the price we pay when we buy the car.

Short term rebates (that expire….. get ‘em while they last) actually create some urgency to buy something.

Long term rebates that last a decade with no limits……. It just becomes part of the price. Manufacturers can predictably expect the rebates and build them into their price structure.

Again, bottom line, these will not result in lower prices for the consumer (long term) and will do nothing but line the pockets of the manufacturers…….. who DO NOT need the $$ (record profits) and don’t need the incentive to focus on EVs (they have already committed).

You can’t compare this to the short term 200k credits we have now. They served their purpose.

EV's will still need to compete with the ICE vehicles. If the ICE cars expire in 2036, one could still buy an ICE car in 2035 and it would last at least 10 years placing us into 2045.

Take away the incentives and you will take away the amount of people purchasing the EV's. You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out.

Now the upper Middle Class (many on this forum), will do just fine with or without a tax credit. I am sure you are sitting comfortable and will do just fine. I have positioned myself to be in the same boat so to speak and I am not too worried personally if the tax credits expire.

On the other hand, the Middle Class will continue to buy the used ICE cars if this Bill falls flat and no Bill is introduced into the future.

Inflation will wane just like it always does along with the burning of the planet if we do nothing. I predicted that inflation would occur when they pumped money into the PPP program. I personally benefited from it and shielded myself from inflationary pain if you will, through cautionary spending and keeping some money in reserve for a rainy day. Raise the interest rates to 12% and say goodbye to inflation. It happened in the 80's and I am sure it will happen again. For those that say keeping some cash is foolish, I say study the 80's in a little finer scope. Cash was King and interest rates were your friend.

In the meantime, we have one of two options. Start looking at getting more people (including the middle class) into EV's or letting the status quo fester and see the planet change at an ever faster rate. Pick your poison.

Inflation can be fixed in a matter of months, climate change will takes years of educating the uneducated along with changing people's buying habits i.e. ICE vehicles. If we choose to do nothing, inflation will mean nothing. It would be like worrying about a sore throat if you were engulfed in flames.

 

[nvabill]

Guys they are gonna do what they wanna do no matter what anybody thinks!

 

[Mach1E]

EV's will still need to compete with the ICE vehicles. If the ICE cars expire in 2036, one could still buy an ICE car in 2035 and it would last at least 10 years placing us into 2045.

Take away the incentives and you will take away the amount of people purchasing the EV's. You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to figure that one out.

Now the upper Middle Class (many on this forum), will do just fine with or without a tax credit. I am sure you are sitting comfortable and will do just fine. I have positioned myself to be in the same boat so to speak and I am not too worried personally if the tax credits expire.

On the other hand, the Middle Class will continue to buy the used ICE cars if this Bill falls flat and no Bill is introduced into the future.

Inflation will wane just like it always does along with the burning of the planet if we do nothing. I predicted that inflation would occur when they pumped money into the PPP program. I personally benefited from it and shielded myself from inflationary pain if you will, through cautionary spending and keeping some money in reserve for a rainy day. Raise the interest rates to 12% and say goodbye to inflation. It happened in the 80's and I am sure it will happen again. For those that say keeping some cash is foolish, I say study the 80's in a little finer scope. Cash was King and interest rates were your friend.

In the meantime, we have one of two options. Start looking at getting more people (including the middle class) into EV's or letting the status quo fester and see the planet change at an ever faster rate. Pick your poison.

Inflation can be fixed in a matter of months, climate change will takes years of educating the uneducated along with changing people's buying habits i.e. ICE vehicles. If we choose to do nothing, inflation will mean nothing. It would be like worrying about a sore throat if you were engulfed in flames.

You are still under the assumption that these incentives lower the price of the car to the consumer.

Let’s just assume you are right. All the $$ lowers the price 1 for 1. And let’s assume the lower price increases the adoption rate of BEVs by a few years.

$300 billion spent and we have slightly higher BEV adoption over the next decade.

Now that all happens and what’s the climate change impact? How much bang for our buck does that $300 billion give us?

My guess is it’s an immeasurable amount.

Seems like a lot of money to make a minimal impact on something that’s going that direction even without the money (BEV adoption). Especially since BEVs are only slightly better for the environment.

I feel like they could do other things with that $$ to make a larger climate impact.

 

[timbop]

...
Inflation can be fixed in a matter of months, climate change will takes years of educating the uneducated along with changing people's buying habits i.e. ICE vehicles. If we choose to do nothing, inflation will mean nothing. It would be like worrying about a sore throat if you were engulfed in flames.

This is the point that always seems to be missed. If the trends that have shown themselves over the last 20 years continue then a large swath of currently productive farm land will decline significantly, damage from storm systems will increase, constant flooding will devalue coastal property values, and a collapse of prime fisheries will put added pressure on the worldwide food supply. The effects from those things will be much larger than temporary inflation problems now.

 

[devmach-e]

Seems we also disagree on the impact that long term credits have on the price we pay when we buy the car.

Short term rebates (that expire….. get ‘em while they last) actually create some urgency to buy something.

Long term rebates that last a decade with no limits……. It just becomes part of the price. Manufacturers can predictably expect the rebates and build them into their price structure.

Again, bottom line, these will not result in lower prices for the consumer (long term) and will do nothing but line the pockets of the manufacturers…….. who DO NOT need the $$ (record profits) and don’t need the incentive to focus on EVs (they have already committed).

You can’t compare this to the short term 200k credits we have now. They served their purpose.

I would argue that the current scheme that we have has lasted for more than a decade with no limits. That alleged 200K limit? It's a trigger, not a cap. Manufacturers are free to sell as many as of their EVs as they can pump out after they hit the 200K trigger. So long as they do that in the quarter they hit 200K, and the following quarter. And even after that, the credit sticks around, just in a reduced manner. I can guarantee you that GM and Tesla sold significantly more than 200K qualifying vehicles that got the full amount of the credit.

I don't disagree that the manufacturers have been pricing the vehicles with the $7500 credit in mind. This is clearly borne out by the relative drop in prices, or offering of incentives, each time the credit got cut in half.

 

[Southern92]

$0.03





Just thought I'd throw in my two cents along with everyone else!!!!

 

[dbsb3233]

I feel like they could do other things with that $$ to make a larger climate impact.

Or even better, leave that money in taxpayers' pockets to begin with and let them decide where to spend it.

Just about anyone that's driven an EV can see that they're going to be a huge hit with most consumers that are in the right situation to take advantage of it. Not all, but most after they get a taste of it. Not because of any ridiculous tax credits, but because the vehicle is just plain better and more fun and easier to refuel at home overnight. This contention that "they'll just go back to ICE when the subsidy ends" is so obviously incorrect (on the whole). Particularly in a couple of years as battery costs come down and they achieve price parity with ICE.

Extending the subsidy at this point is just (another) waste of taxpayer money.

 

[Mach1E]

This is the point that always seems to be missed. If the trends that have shown themselves over the last 20 years continue then a large swath of currently productive farm land will decline significantly, damage from storm systems will increase, constant flooding will devalue coastal property values, and a collapse of prime fisheries will put added pressure on the worldwide food supply. The effects from those things will be much larger than temporary inflation problems now.

They said that 20 years ago too.

Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter as much as getting people to care does.

Humans are horrible at prevention. We are all just giant children. Doesn’t matter many times you tell people the horrible consequences of their actions……… they still do it anyways.

I’ve always thought that they have done a horrible job “marketing” environmental policies.

Scare tactics of what could be 100 years from now? Seriously….. very few people think past this weekend, let alone long after they’re dead.

Example- carbon output to fight man made global warming. Should be rebranded to “reduce smog.”

Hard to argue against smog. It’s visible, current and 100% manmade.

And the result of reducing smog? Less carbon output.

People are selfish…… just have to give them selfish reasons to do things.

I’m ok if people do the right thing……. Even if it’s for the wrong reasons.

 

[Caulk-E]

North America.

Other than Tesla, no other manufacturers uses a battery that is made in North America. Now in the future, that all may change. But at this moment, these batteries are made outside of North America.

 

[generaltso]

Other than Tesla, no other manufacturers uses a battery that is made in North America. Now in the future, that all may change. But at this moment, these batteries are made outside of North America.

Where are the Mach-E batteries assembled?

 

[DennisD]

Or even better, leave that money in taxpayers' pockets to begin with and let them decide where to spend it.

Just about anyone that's driven an EV can see that they're going to be a huge hit with most consumers that are in the right situation to take advantage of it. Not all, but most after they get a taste of it. Not because of any ridiculous tax credits, but because the vehicle is just plain better and more fun and easier to refuel at home overnight. This contention that "they'll just go back to ICE when the subsidy ends" is so obviously incorrect (on the whole). Particularly in a couple of years as battery costs come down and they achieve price parity with ICE.

Extending the subsidy at this point is just (another) waste of taxpayer money.

What we now have currently, is a tax credit if you purchase an EV from a Manufacturer that has not yet reached the 200K limit in production. In other words, you are essentially getting a tax cut at the end of the year. You are keeping "your" money and spending it however you choose. To paraphrase, you are deciding where to spend it.

When you say "extending" the subsidy, what you are suggesting is that people shouldn't be getting a tax credit while at the same time you are suggesting that people will spend it more wisely if they can keep the money in their pockets.

Do you often find yourself disagreeing with yourself?

Now I realize that the "payout" will be different in the new Bill, it is essentially the same thing at the end of the day. (or year in the previous case)

I would think Republicans would love this current structure proposed. They are always talking about how tax cuts would spur the economy but I guess they don't like it so much when Democrats introduce it?

 

[mjs020294]

If the purpose is to reduce oil consumption and carbon emissions the focus should be on PHEVs. The average commute is around 25 miles, and most private trips are much shorter. If you get a lot of people in vehicles capable of 50-60 miles with electricity power it will reduce the oil consumption far quicker than a few people on full EV.

There are a lot of benefits going down the PHEV route: no urgency for charging networks, resources would go further (a PHEV only needs a 20-25 kw battery), peoples anxiety around lack of charging is mooted.

Have a tax rebate (not credit) but cap the vehicle price to under $40,000. That will excelerate the shift to PHEV and EV far faster.

Sponsored