kennethjk

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You need to check the IRS requirements. I am pretty sure from what I have read that you have to take possession of and place the vehicle into operation and not just have a purchase agreement. This was discussed elsewhere on the forum. I could be wrong though. One of the discussions was someone trying to use a purchase in December to get credit for 2021 tax year but would not take possession until 2022.
under existing law you are correct, the car had to be placed in service. I believe the new bill has a carve out that if ordered now but taken possession after new bill goes into effect you may have the choice on which bill to use.

I copied this from https://electrek.co/2022/08/07/senate-improves-ev-tax-credit-in-largest-climate-bill-ever/

  • If you have a signed purchase order or sign one before Biden signs the bill (i.e., this week) and then have to wait for delivery of an EV assembled outside of North America, you can still qualify for the current credit.
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Shelbeast

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The dirty truth of tax credits is that everyone else pays for it. The Government needs a certain amount of money to run. When they give out tax credits, they have to raise some form of tax or borrow with interest. So everyone pays.

You (can't) shouldn't favor just 1 industry but they do that. Big oil, big pharma. My business? HA. Nothing. Favoritism needs to stop.
I bought an EV because I wanted to not because there was an incentive. The tax incentive was a bonus but I would have bought it either way.
I pay a lot of taxes. I get a benefit back. So, no one is paying for it but me. Wait, am I paying others to benefit? Oh, then it's a wash.
 

Shelbeast

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Or even better, leave that money in taxpayers' pockets to begin with and let them decide where to spend it.

Just about anyone that's driven an EV can see that they're going to be a huge hit with most consumers that are in the right situation to take advantage of it. Not all, but most after they get a taste of it. Not because of any ridiculous tax credits, but because the vehicle is just plain better and more fun and easier to refuel at home overnight. This contention that "they'll just go back to ICE when the subsidy ends" is so obviously incorrect (on the whole). Particularly in a couple of years as battery costs come down and they achieve price parity with ICE.

Extending the subsidy at this point is just (another) waste of taxpayer money.
I am the taxpayer and I demand some benefit back. Not a waste of my money except when gov gives more breaks to wealthy or lets them have loop holes overseas.
 

Shelbeast

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I've got a GT on order - one of the last ones. If it gets built as a '22 I'm sure it would be in October.

Looks like I've got three good scenarios (and additional bad ones where I get no rebate):
- Arrives in Q4 for full $7500 rebate
- Arrives in Q1 for grandfathered $7500 rebate
- Arrives in Q1 for $7500 rebate if the Mach-E qualifies as 50% clean, etc.

The grandfathered option is the most curious one since per the Act, I could treat it as being placed the day before "enactment." That would be a pretend Q3/Q4 date which is better than I'd have gotten without this Act (as a 50% rebate in '23).

My understanding is "day of enactment" of bills is generally meant to be understood as the day the President signs it into law. Therefore, I'd actually need to have a binding contract prior to it being signed into law per the text of the Act.

I would not consider my pre-order as a binding purchase agreement. Do any dealers actually permit me to sign a binding purchase agreement prior to the car being built? I expect that would mean they would have to specify a price in the contract.

If I could get a binding contract signed this week then I should be guaranteed the $7500. Otherwise, it's left up to chance...
The dealer and I signed an agreement in March. It's binding and I get the price freeze.
 

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I pay a lot of taxes. I get a benefit back. So, no one is paying for it but me. Wait, am I paying others to benefit? Oh, then it's a wash.
I guess you could use that exact same logic when purchasing a lottery ticket?

I would gladly take a "wash", rather than the alternative of paying more out.

Once again, just like the lottery ticket. I would rather end up receiving most if not all of the money I placed in rather than not.

Pay 7.5k in taxes, get 7.5k in credit. Spend $10 in lottery tickets, win $10 in lottery tickets.

OR

Pay 7.5k in taxes, get zero in credit. Spend $10 in lottery tickets, watch my neighbor win.

Now it should be no surprise that we pay for "stuff". Nothing is free and no one should suggest anything like that. I fully expect to pay for "stuff" but when someone says that you can get a discount on stuff you are paying for, I will follow the advice below.

I will take "what is a wash" for $7,500 Alex. ;)
 
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FullyCharged

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Shelbeast

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I guess you could use that exact same logic when purchasing a lottery ticket?

I would gladly take a "wash", rather than the alternative of paying more out.

Once again, just like the lottery ticket. I would rather end up receiving most if not all of the money I placed in rather than not.

Pay 7.5k in taxes, get 7.5k in credit. Spend $10 in lottery tickets, win $10 in lottery tickets.

OR

Pay 7.5k in taxes, get zero in credit. Spend $10 in lottery tickets, watch my neighbor win.

Now it should be no surprise that we pay for "stuff". Nothing is free and no one should suggest anything like that. I fully expect to pay for "stuff" but when someone says that you can get a discount on stuff you are paying for, I will follow the advice below.

I will take "what is a wash" for $7,500 Alex. ;)
Bad example. Lottery is gambling. Very different. Nice try though.
 

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dbsb3233

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I am the taxpayer and I demand some benefit back. Not a waste of my money except when gov gives more breaks to wealthy or lets them have loop holes overseas.
That's a lot more than "some" benefit. The average taxpayer has paid in something like $100 to fund the EV tax credits over the last decade. While the small number of (mostly well-off) people claiming the benefit are getting $7500 out of it.

I enjoyed finally being on the winning end of that deal for a change too when buying my Mach-E last year, but my point was that it's really better not to tax that money away from people in the first place for something that's really not a core, crucial function of government.
 
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ARK

ARK

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Sorry if I missed it, can someone say which page of the bill includes the grandfather clause for the current tax credit requirements?
 

jbooth

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The old scheme (capped at 200k units per manufacturer) ended up costing taxpayers about $10B thru 2022. Roughly 1.4 million vehicles with $7500 credits.

10 years of this new scheme (if they get the battery sources and manufacturing locations shifted around in a few years so most quality) could end up costing taxpayers a quarter of a trillion dollars. That would be roughly an average of 20% market share for qualifying BEVs + PHEVs over the next decade. And that may be conservative. By the 10th year we could be at 70% BEV+PHEV market share (although not all qualifying, of course).
It is very convenient you leave out the costs of continuing on the way things are. OMG A QUARTER TRILLION EVERYONE PANIC PANIC PANIC!

Fox News, is that you?

How much will the damage from climate change cost in losses? Are you considering direct (hurricane damage) or indirect (farming productivity)? What about the military action we've engaged in to support our dependence on oil? Iraq? Afghanistan (a direct consequence of past meddling in the middle east)? How about the health benefits for less pollution, especially in big cities? What about the subsidies we won't need to give to ethanol or big oil, instead it goes to "average" citizens (at least compared to the oil execs and hedge funds), who'll either save (good for the citizen) or spend (good for the economy) that money.

If you aren't going to even start to consider the whole picture, your opinion isn't worth considering. I'm sure there's a bigger picture than I have listed -- everything is going to have second, third, ... order impacts, but if you aren't even going to start with other impacts, well...
 

dbsb3233

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Gonna be a lot of buyers scrambling now to lock in reservations/orders for credits that are good under the old law that probably won't be under the new law. I just read a story that said Fisker is recommending people convert to non-refundable orders immediately to ensure they can get the full $7500 credit.

Probably half marketing, half truth.
 

dbsb3233

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How much will the damage from climate change cost in losses?.....
There's a TON of debate and disagreement on most of what you responded with. Including how much (or little) impact any of this would have even if buying into it all. But that'll never be solved here as it's a debate a million times bigger than a car forum can handle.

My point was simply to say that this takes what was a capped "give manufacturers an initial push to get them going" scheme that cost us about $10B to an open-ended 10-year subsidy that will cost us 25x that now, for a shift that's already occurring without the need for massive subsidy. It's a needless waste of taxpayer money IMO. The transition is already set in motion.
 

Regulus7

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I think the most likely impact from this bill will actually be an increase in PHEV sales which will mostly qualify given their smaller battery sizes and are built in the USA already. Moreover, PHEVs are much easier for the average person to understand and do not require a fully built out charging infrastructure. Pure BEVs will instead move higher up the price chain as repeat buyers are likely and can afford it. Net result is a small improvement in overall emissions and lower GHG but overall impact on global warming will be negligible. Look it’s not all bad… just don’t buy or own any beachfront property and we are going to have some nice long summers and very short winters in the northeast. Probably a good idea to buy some land in VT or upstate Maine! :)
 

Z-one

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Sorry if I missed it, can someone say which page of the bill includes the grandfather clause for the current tax credit requirements?
Bottom of 402 and onto 403.

(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the
22 date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered
23 into a written binding contract to purchase, a new
24 qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as de25
fined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue
1 Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date
2 of enactment of this Act), and
3 (2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the
4 date of enactment of this Act,
5 such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form
6 and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Sec7
retary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as
8 having been placed in service on the day before the date
9 of enactment of this Act.
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