Seriously considering the Tesla Y now, talk me down

[Mluu510]

Unless you care about the $7500 tax credit, I wouldn't bother with the mach e. Tesla all the way!?

Sponsored

 

[agoldman]

The Tesla free supercharge for a year offer is a nice perc, but no where near enough to sway me.

 

[BigPoppa]

I canceled my reservation for the Mach-E GT early last month and decided to go with the Model Y Performance.

These are the reasons why the Model Y Performance was a better fit for me (your use case is already different since you're looking at the long range, non-performance variants):

• I was only interested in the GT/Performance variants.
• I have a Chevy Bolt and Energica motorcycles as my daily around town driver EVs.
• The Mach-E/Tesla was going to be my road trip EV
• Having used CCS on my electric motorcycles and Bolt, I've realized that I personally liked the Tesla Supercharger network better from both an availability and ease of use stand-point.
• Post Model Y purchase I saw the published range of the Mach-E GT and I'm glad I went with the Model Y Performance instead.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the Mach-E, it just wasn't the best fit for me and my use case. I hope Ford is able to put their muscle behind the Electrify America CCS chargers and drive improvements in reliability and availability.

Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I've found the Electrify America CCS chargers to be the most unreliable chargers when compared to Chargepoint and EVGo.

After experiencing the Tesla Superchargers and the level of integration with their vehicles, IMHO the various CCS providers need to standardize on a single authorization and payment system to make it easier to use. I currently have to carry about a half dozen RFID cards and phone apps because I never know when a charger is going to fail to recognize the app or the RFID card and because of the number of CCS charger providers in this area that each require their own card/app to use.

 

[available_username2]

Model Y wins EPA range by 20% (Model Y LR AWD: 326, Mach E ER AWD: 270). On WLTP, Mach E wins Model Y by 7%(Model Y LR AWD: 314, Mach E ER AWD: 335).

I expect the real life difference to be in between -20% and 7%. It's hard to say which is going to be better. Some people say that even though WLTP range is farther from real-world, it's more useful for comparison between cars.

This the main thing. The ranges are similar, if not better for the MME. Tesla really games the system to squeeze the EPA numbers to get the stock market hot and bothered

https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/

The battery is much bigger in the MME. And remember that in the tesla that is close to 100% of the battery capacity. Which, yeah, can be useful to have available for rare road trips, but you can not charge your battery to that level every day. It will destroy the battery in months. In the MME it reserves a little more than 10% of the battery capacity, meaning you can get that much range every day no problem.

Also OP the tax credit is just a reduction to your tax bill. I'm going to stop withholding taxes on my paycheck to get the $7,500 ASAP.

 

[pt19713]

This the main thing. The ranges are similar, if not better for the MME. Tesla really games the system to squeeze the EPA numbers to get the stock market hot and bothered

It's still way to early to speculate. Once people have the vehicles and can real world testing, everyone will just have to wait and see.

Below is a screen shot from my SMT app (pulled from the vehicle's CAN bus). Over the last 434 miles, temps ranging from 28F to 55F here in Delaware, 30% highway, 70% below 65 mph, I'm averaging 242 wh/mi. 2020 Tesla Model Y LR AWD with acceleration boost. If you do the math, that's 310 miles of range for the 75 kWh usable battery range (it's 78 kWh if count the reserve for those who happen to hit 0%).

If you compare the AWD ER to the numbers below, the AWD ER would need to achieve 284 wh/mi efficiency to yield 310 miles (based upon the 88 kWh usable pack). Considering the AWD ER has a rating of 308 wh/mi city and 351 wh/mi highway, the engineering group is going to have a lot of work cut out for them to get the efficiency improved for real world driving and not the EPA numbers.

Note, the LR Y AWD needs 230 wh/mi to hit the 326 EPA rating.

Given a few years, numerous improvements will be made and what we're seeing at launch is still a good effort, but I'll hold any judgement until production units are out in the field and people do some controlled tests.

 

[timbop]

Unless you care about the $7500 tax credit, I wouldn't bother with the mach e. Tesla all the way!?

That's a well considered and convincing argument - almost as powerful as "I know you are but what am I" in its scope and airtight logic.

 

[available_username2]

It's still way to early to speculate. Once people have the vehicles and can real world testing, everyone will just have to wait and see.

Below is a screen shot from my SMT app (pulled from the vehicle's CAN bus). Over the last 434 miles, temps ranging from 28F to 55F here in Delaware, 30% highway, 70% below 65 mph, I'm averaging 242 wh/mi. 2020 Tesla Model Y LR AWD with acceleration boost. If you do the math, that's 310 miles of range for the 75 kWh usable battery range (it's 78 kWh if count the reserve for those who happen to hit 0%).

If you compare the AWD ER to the numbers below, the AWD ER would need to achieve 284 wh/mi efficiency to yield 310 miles (based upon the 88 kWh usable pack). Considering the AWD ER has a rating of 308 wh/mi city and 351 wh/mi highway, the engineering group is going to have a lot of work cut out for them to get the efficiency improved for real world driving and not the EPA numbers.

Note, the LR Y AWD needs 230 wh/mi to hit the 326 EPA rating.

Given a few years, numerous improvements will be made and what we're seeing at launch is still a good effort, but I'll hold any judgement until production units are out in the field and people do some controlled tests.

well yeah if the epa rating of efficiency is correct, then the range is much lower. But the epa numbers are conservative, which is demonstrated by the fact the WLTP range is greater for MME than the model y

 

[available_username2]

If these things won’t drive you crazy, there are definitely advantages including Supercharger network, consistent OTA updates with quality of life improvements, and superior level two driving system.

MME has consistent OTA updates with QOL improvements, and a hands free level 2 system is superior to one that isn't (although granted the MME won't have that at launch)

 

[pt19713]

well yeah if the epa rating of efficiency is correct, then the range is much lower. But the epa numbers are conservative, which is demonstrated by the fact the WLTP range is greater for MME than the model y

I don't suggest referring to the WLTP ratings. The Europeans even state those ratings are more inaccurate than the EPA ratings.

It's possible the MME gets a better efficiency than EPA but I don't see it happening. It would have to be an improvement of 20%.

 

[Maric]

MME has consistent OTA updates with QOL improvements, and a hands free level 2 system is superior to one that isn't (although granted the MME won't have that at launch)

Regarding OTA, we as buyers hope so, but remains to be proven. Tesla owners have been getting OTA improvements via a Tweet to Musk. I very much doubt Ford will have the open door on suggestions and implementation of customer suggested changes that Tesla customers enjoy. I hope so but I really don't see that happening in Ford's current corp culture.

The MachE will probably never have the scope that Tesla's FSD provides. MachE L2 seems to be relegated to freeway use for the most part. FSD can be used pretty much on all surface streets. I really hope Ford will enable the MachE to do so at a future date but not sure the tech they are using will allow that much freedom.

 

[available_username2]

I believe the Y comes with a heating coil as well for that reason. However, Bjorn Nyland did a comparison with his M3 without heat pump and a new one with a heat pump. While the energy used for heating his non-heat-pump car was much higher relative to the heat pump one, the overall impact on range and efficiency wasn't that high - on the order of 6% IIRC. That's just one test, but it is at least a real data point.

You can look at the model 3 range before the refresh where they added the heat pump. It was like 15 or 20 miles or something? It's not that big an impact because a heat pump helps when it's cold but not freezing. So there the battery is effected, but not as bad as when it's really cold below freezing temps. There you have to use resistive heat so the draw is bad on both.

 

[Nak]

It's not that big an impact because a heat pump helps when it's cold but not freezing. So there the battery is effected, but not as bad as when it's really cold below freezing temps. There you have to use resistive heat so the draw is bad on both.

Not exactly true. You're forgetting that the heat pump system allows you to scavenge waste heat from the battery and the motors to help heat the cabin. So the heat pump is going to be more efficient than resistive heating down to that temperature that that the motor and battery no longer produce waste heat. I have not seen any testing to try and determine at what temperature that is, certainly it is below the temperature that a heat pump by itself is effective.

 

[Ricmic8560]

I don't know if I can "talk you down" but here are my notes. This is me comparing the Model Y LR to the Mach-E AWD ER (premium).

Effective Cost (including Federal Tax Credit where available.)
Tesla: 53190 (blue with tow hitch, no tax credit)
Mach-E: 48490 (full 7500 tax credit)

Estimated Highway Speed Range
Tesla: 261 (80% of 326 miles)
Mach-E: 216 (80% of 270 miles)

Note on highway speed: Tesla model Y varies a lot here, ranging from 70-87% of EPA rated range. I chose 80% for an average. Waiting for reviewers post-embargo and post-delivery to give better estimate on highway range for the Mach-E but for now have given it the same.

Performance: Both 0-60 in 4.8

Charging infrastructure concerns:
Tesla is way ahead here and it is a significant advantage. However outside of long road trips you won't really need to do anything but charge overnight at home so it may not matter.

I'm not sure how 3rd party chargers are in Idaho, here in California there's plenty of both.

Depending on where/if you want to do long road trips the Tesla may be a better deal for you on infrastructure. Consult with abetterrouteplanner.com for your specific use case.

In terms of utility and convenience I'm a big fan of an instrument cluster behind the steering wheel and found one center screen awkward to use. Overall I prefer Mach-E for everything with the exception being the lack of a tow package here in the U.S. You can get one after-market and I previously confirmed the Mach-E could tow up to 3k pounds which is pretty reasonable.

So there you go. My feeling is that if the Mach-E comes in with favorable reviews, good efficiency at highway speeds, and doesn't have any glaring quality issues I'm going to take a chance on it.

However the Model Y is a solid car, assuming you don't have any fit/finish issues. Both would serve well I think.

I was somewhat in the same boat as you last summer. I had been waiting on the MME for about 9 months, was anxiously waiting to get my hands on an electric car. The Model Y had lowered it's price, on paper it has bigger cargo and more mileage. My brain kept saying : "This is the better deal." Both cars do not have the Tax Credit in Canada (price is too high). So I went and test drove the car. The handling was good as well as the acceleration (pretty sure all electric vehicles have the same acceleration)... But what I didn't like was that the car, when inside, didn't feel like a car I would put so much money on it. As we said, it's bland and everything is driven by the touch screen. I didn't like that. I am also not a fan of the outside of the vehicle, it doesn't catch my eye that much. Then I read online about the build qualities and I didn't want to end up having to deal with that. At that price point, I expect the car to not have strange build qualities with paint, parts that don't line up, etc.. These issues has since been fixed (or say they say online), but who knows?

I came back home and for weeks it annoyed me in my head. The MME had a more traditional interior, the frame of the car is just BEAUTIFUL. It's must more attractive than the Model Y in my opinion.

So in the end, it was a Heart Vs Brain issue My heart loves the MME, but my brain was telling me the Y is better in terms of usage and I could of had one back in September for about the same price.

I my experience, when I go with Brains over Heart in a car (which I have done before), I end up regretting it. I see the other models on the road and there's always a little bit of envy when I go :" That was the other model I would have went for...but I have this car instead." So this time, I decided to go with my heart again. Sure MME has less range and less cargo, but I'm already in love with the car, so I will not regret. The Distance the MME does is more than enough for my needs and as well as the cargo, except for a few family outings to a cottage or something, I don't need all the extra space the Model Y will give.

In the end, both cars are fantastic vehicles. You wont regret getting a Model Y if you do, pretty sure of it, just as I know I won't regret getting the MME over the Model Y.

I am with you on most of what you said about both cars. I really like the looks of the MME over the MY. I am hoping that with the MME, Ford will at some point in the future, open up some of the top end of the reserved battery and raise the mileage range to over 300? I really like the interior of the MME, especially the display behind the wheel. I think it is more natural for the eyes to look down between the steering wheel for speed and battery information rather than to the right on the single Tesla center display, that at any time can go dark? The fact that the MME has a nicely sized frunk very similar to Tesla's, tells me how much thought went into the engineering of the vehicle. Look at the VW ID4 and Nissan Ariya, they both will not have a frunk, and neither will the Fisker Ocean!
The other question that comes to mind is how much will the MME be worth in 2-3 or 5 years VS the MY? Another thing that bothers me is the shorter warranty on the MME. You get 3yrs/36k miles bumper to bumper, 8yrs/100k miles on the battery and 5yrs/60k on the drive train VS the MY you get 4yrs/50k miles bumper to bumper, 8yrs/120k miles on battery and drive train? In the end the MME is eligible for the $7500 tax credit which is not available on any Tesla. I have not made a decision either way yet. I will wait to see what the new year brings.

 

[jhalkias]

I was traveling between Oklahoma and California on last Christmas in LR M3, the temperature was about 0F along the way sometimes, and I had no problem charging quickly (~30-40 mins) and getting to the next Supercharger in 100-150 miles. Realistically, in cold weather on a highway, expect about 200 miles (safely) in a long-range Tesla.

My advise - get Model Y now (you'll get next year supercharging free) and then you will be able to compare MME, Model Y, and probably Cybertruck. Most likely you will be able to sell your Model Y easily for after a year if you want Ford or another vehicle.

I wouldn’t count on Tesla resale a year from now with all the new BEV’s coming out. The world is about to change Elon.

 

[Jyak]

Honestly if you need maximum range go for the Tesla Model "S" as it gets 402 Miles per charge . Not cheap, sorry.

I had a loaner Model S while my wife's Model 3 was in the shop for an afternoon. The Model S felt pretty outdated as compared to the 3. It could have been because it was a slightly older model, but the experience turned me off of the idea of buying a used S.

If you need maximum range go for an Aptera (1000 mile) or wait to see what Toyota (and Tesla) have coming in the next couple years. We rarely put more than 30 or 40 miles on the 3 and our 110v outlet keeps it fully charged at night, so I can't really speak to range. BUT, check out "Out Of Spec Motoring" on youtube. That guy does tons of very long range drives in various Teslas to give you an idea of actual range and charging. He also posted a Mach-E video this morning.

Sponsored