Seriously considering the Tesla Y now, talk me down

agoldman

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I think a good part of what makes tesla such a cult favorite is the way they market and sell the cars. The current gen likes to do all their business on a smart phone. Don't underestimate the value of this for at least people under 39. This no dealer, no extra mark up, no haggle, cut and dry way of doing business may not be to everyone's liking, but it seems to be the way of the future. I don't think that Ford or anyone else selling a nicer EV is going to gain this Tesla following and rating under the current old school way of doing business, no matter how good the actual cars are. Think about it. There is way more to the tesla phenomenon than hey that's cool tech. Then again, 0-60 at 3.5 and 300+ range quotes help a lot. Can't sleep on that either.

All that said, there is a shelf life to all that, without quality control and reasonable service, which may in fact end up being Tesla's achilles heel.
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Kamuelaflyer

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I think a good part of what makes tesla such a cult favorite is the way they market and sell the cars. The current gen likes to do all their business on a smart phone. Don't underestimate the value of this for at least people under 39. This no dealer, no extra mark up, no haggle, cut and dry way of doing business may not be to everyone's liking, but it seems to be the way of the future. I don't think that Ford or anyone else selling a nicer EV is going to gain this Tesla following and rating under the current old school way of doing business, no matter how good the actual cars are. Think about it. There is way more to the tesla phenomenon than hey that's cool tech. Then again, 0-60 at 3.5 and 300+ range quotes help a lot. Can't sleep on that either.

All that said, there is a shelf life to all that, without quality control and reasonable service, which may in fact end up being Tesla's achilles heel.
The biggest attraction of Tesla for me is exactly the avoidance of doing business with dealers. The Ford Mach-e reservation system attracted me for the same reasons. Unfortunately, it fell short and the method used is a major drawback to me. If I never had to deal with a dealer again, Ford or otherwise, it’d be too soon.
 

stroszek

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The E will almost certainly have better paint. Compare environmental restrictions for paint in Mexico and California and you'll quickly see why that will be the case.
If you search for those all you get is a bunch of Tesla threads where people say they heard this is why the paint is bad and other people saying it’s probably a myth.
 

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All that said, there is a shelf life to all that, without quality control and reasonable service, which may in fact end up being Tesla's achilles heel.
That demographic does have a tendency to have a short attention span on loyalty too, moving on to the next hot new thing rather quickly and leaving the last one in the dust.

Myspace, anyone? Gameboy? Pandora? Even Facebook and Twitter are becoming old news as millennials move on to Snapchat and Instagram.
 

agoldman

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That demographic does have a tendency to have a short attention span on loyalty too, moving on to the next hot new thing rather quickly and leaving the last one in the dust.

Myspace, anyone? Gameboy? Pandora? Even Facebook and Twitter are becoming old news as millennials move on to Snapchat and Instagram.
Yes, and just as fast, companies need to be able to keep up and change with the times, or better yet, innovate the changes themselves.
 


Nak

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If you search for those all you get is a bunch of Tesla threads where people say they heard this is why the paint is bad and other people saying it’s probably a myth.
Why read forum posts written by people that have no clue? Go to the source. Coatings Rules in California
 

stroszek

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Are you asking me to read and interpret environmental regulations and somehow predict their effect on paint quality as a total layman or is there some specific clause that someone who knows what they’re talking about has identified as causing Tesla’s paint problems?
 

Nak

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All that said, there is a shelf life to all that, without quality control and reasonable service, which may in fact end up being Tesla's achilles heel.
Absolutely both QC and CS need to improve. Tesla's post sale/pre-delivery customer service sucks. Some Service Centers are not customer oriented at all. Here in Portland, we're lucky to have a great Service Center. But it shouldn't be a matter of luck. As far as quality control, Tesla is pushing hard, but still too many problems coming through the line. Hence the need to very carefully inspect your car before purchase. I do think things will improve, especially as the Austin Gigafactory comes on line.

Ford needs to improve as well though. Let's face it, most dealer service departments either suck or actively try and rip you off. And the vast majority of car salesmen/women know next to nothing about cars. Hopefully QC on the E will be a lot better than other recent Ford offerings.
 

Nak

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Are you asking me to read and interpret environmental regulations and somehow predict their effect on paint quality as a total layman or is there some specific clause that someone who knows what they’re talking about has identified as causing Tesla’s paint problems?
Long story short for laymen: California has very stringent requirements on what can be in paint. The things they restrict make it much easier to achieve a quality paint job. Mexico does not have most of these restrictions, and the ones they do are not enforced. The paint that Ford can use in Mexico is of much better quality than what they can use in California. Better, as in easier to apply, easier to get a quality finish, better as in the final paint after curing will be harder.

EDITED TO ADD: Of course, "better" in this case also means more nasty chemicals being released into the environment.
 

ArtyMachy

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I can give you my 2 cents as an owner of Model 3 and waiting for my Mach E. thinking of going fully electric.
I travel daily to work only 40 miles (round trip) and at 75 miles/hr of mostly highway I use around 30% of my battery at 28 to 32Âş F. It makes a significant difference if I reduce my speed to around 60 mi/hr but I never do because I can always make it home no matter what. Longer trips are more of a pain in electric and you need to plan better for charging points. I have no issue with that in my area but you need to be resourceful sometimes and use L2 chargers or RV campgrounds (usually 30 or 50 A plugs). You can get back decent amount of range in few hours if you stuck without a supercharger.
Tesla network is also non-existent in hard to reach places as they focus more on denser areas and main routes.
My advice is:
- few trips a year into the wild not much difference with Tesla or Mach E. you need to plan no matter what.
- daily commute of 100 miles in the cold. I don't see issues as you can charge fully every night before you leave and precondition your battery. Unless you absolutely need to drive 80mi/hr.
- charger network will only improve in the coming years. I actually think it will boom in most areas in next 5 years.

So choice is yours, as for me I am looking forward to diversifying my electric fleet :)
 

stroszek

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Mexican made cars aren’t the only paint jobs Tesla compares unfavorably, and while MI and TN probably have fewer environmental regulations than CA I doubt EU countries do.

Moreover I’m skeptical of the idea that stringent environmental regulations necessarily lead to bad paint jobs. More expense, sure. Less choices, maybe.

Most of all if this was actually the issue Elon would never ever shut up about it.
 

supertramp

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Thank God Ford is so much better than Tesla. 5 Car Brands with the Most Recalls—and 6 with the Fewest

Yep, no problems here at Ford. Ford's profits fall nearly 99% for year, due to Explorer woes

It's so good to know that nobody has warranty issues with their Fords. Ford EcoBoost Engine Leak So Bad There’s A Class-Action Lawsuit Ford Dual Clutch Transmission Class Action Lawsuit

Give me a break. Is there an issue with some Ys coming off the line with defects? Yes. Too many? Yes. So if you buy one, inspect it closely, like you should do with any car purchase. Will there be issues with some Mach-Es? Yes. But hey, lets be so insecure about the Mach-e that we have to cry about the Y "It's bad!". Guess what, it's not. It's a great car, and that's why Ford is trying to emulate Tesla. I hope the Mach-e GT Performance is better than the Y; I'll buy one if it is. Even with all of the problems Ford has had, I still figure it's a good car. It's funny as shit how people get so upset that other people are happy with their choice in cars. Tesla has the highest EVER customer satisfaction rate; let's hope that the Mach-e turns things around for Ford.

There is no perfect car. Every car will have issues. A few anecdotal videos are meaningless. Add to the fact that many internet videos are complete and utter bullshit. Really, I thought every knew that by now. "It's on the internet so it must be true." Right. All of that said I think it's very important to look very closely at a Y before purchasing it. Tesla is letting too many problems through. Kind of just like Ford.

Both the Y and the E have pros and cons:

The E will almost certainly have better paint. Compare environmental restrictions for paint in Mexico and California and you'll quickly see why that will be the case. The E has more, and better, color choices over the Y. That said, the vast majority of Y's have fine paint for a factory paint job. I'll be comparing the paint on my Y to a Mach-e one of these days. The E may have better paint, but it will have to be a pretty damn good factory paint job.

Some will prefer the looks of one over the other. There are some that consider the Y ugly, there also many who consider the E ugly. And there are many fans of each as well. The E has a more traditional muscle car look which is less efficient than the Y's aerodynamic look. The E has a more "car like" look than the Y with a rear end that tapers down much faster. The Y looks more like an SUV because the roof does not slope down like the E.

The E has a more of a blend of traditional and digital interiors. The Y has a more minimalistic and digital interior. Many will prefer one over the other. Neither interior is inherently "better" than the other, except that the simpler Tesla interior has fewer parts prone to failure. (Switches and buttons.)

Both cars will be fast and fun to drive. The Y will be faster in a race though. Yep, both are rated 0-60 @ 4.8 seconds. The Ford uses a one foot roll out to get that number, the Tesla does not. 2020 Tesla Model Y Dual Motor Long Range Tested: This Is the "Slow" One The Tesla will do better on windy roads and on the track due to it's 255 wide tires compared to the Ford's 225s. We don't know how the brakes compare between the two because Ford refuses to release the E's actual brake size. Ford continues to release specs for it's brakes that are physically impossible to implement given the wheel size, whether intentionally or because of marketing stupidity we don't know.

The Y will have greater day to day range than the E. The AWD Y is rated at 326 miles, the AWD E 270 miles. To compare real world trip range between the two will require side by side testing. Nothing else is trustworthy. We've recently had one member here post trip data on the Y which is clearly designed to be biased against the Y, whether that bias is intentional or subconscious I don't know. I've offered to do a side by side test with forum members contributing to test conditions, no one has stepped up to commit to such a test. It seems likely that at higher speeds the E will fare even worse against the Y due to the aerodynamics of the two cars. Muscle car looks are great, but everything in life has a trade off. The Y will suffer less range degradation than the E anytime the weather is cold enough to require cabin heat due to the heat pump. This will hold true even at temperatures below heat pump usefulness, because the HVAC system in the Y can scavenge waste heat from the motors and battery for cabin heating. The E can not.

The Y will be better in the snow due to better ground clearance, 5.5" compared to 6.75". Also, "Off Road" mode in the Y is an absolute gem in the snow, I know this from experience. I've driven right by stuck Subarus up on Mt. Hood. Without "Off Road" mode I would likely have been digging out along with the Subarus. I don't know if the E has any similar mode.

If you have large dogs and want them to ride behind the rear seat, the Y is the clear choice. The roof slope that makes the E more car like also limits size in the rear cargo compartment.

If you need or want to tow, the Y is the clear choice. The Y tows 3500 pounds, the E tows zero. The Y has an available roof rack and hitch mounted rack, as far as I am aware the E does not.

The Y has more cargo space and that cargo space is more functional as well, with a large "trunk" area under the floor. The E on the other hand has a cargo cover that is not available on the Y. Given the 600 pounds extra weight of the E and the fact that the E has lower load rated tires than the Y, it's obvious that the Y will have much greater load carrying capacity. Consider though that we haven't seen a production E in a consumers hands. Perhaps production cars will be equipped with tires that have higher load ratings.

The E appears to have better functionality with it's mobile app. It allows you to schedule charging from the app, the Y does not. This may change of course.

The E's "hands off" driving is far more limited than the Y's "Autopilot", with the E's being functional only on a limited selection of roads. The Y's autopilot functionality is included in the purchase price, the E's is not. The E promises to be "hands free", the Y will almost certainly be "hands free" before the E gets this functionality. The E has nothing to compare to Tesla's "FSD", on the other hand "FSD" is expensive and a gamble at this time. It may allow totally autonomous driving at some point, it may not.

Ford has a much larger service network than Tesla. Tesla has a better warranty and mobile service that will come to your door. That said, certain heavy maintenance issues may need to be addressed at a Service Center. Even though Tesla will pay to have the car towed, this would still be a PITA. Ford's dealer/service network is both a blessing and a curse. A close by Ford dealer will be more convenient for sure. Conversely, dealers make most of their money from service. The fact that Ford dealers are supporting the Mach-e says they feel there will be money to be made servicing it.

Tesla has a much better charging network than what the E will have access to. The third party chargers that The E will use are notorious for having issues regarding payment and charging. Tesla superchargers are more widespread and far more convenient to use. That said, given three to five years I'd guess that will become a moot point.

TLDR: The Mach-e Has more traditional muscle car looks and a superior service network. The Y has a more aerodynamic shape, greater range, is faster and has greater utility than the E.
My goodness... After reading this, I seriously questioning who in the right mind is going to buy E? No sarcasm, honestly... ;) Thanks for the long and detailed post - this definitely helpful.
 

Nak

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Mexican made cars aren’t the only paint jobs Tesla compares unfavorably, and while MI and TN probably have fewer environmental regulations than CA I doubt EU countries do.

Moreover I’m skeptical of the idea that stringent environmental regulations necessarily lead to bad paint jobs. More expense, sure. Less choices, maybe.

Most of all if this was actually the issue Elon would never ever shut up about it.
Dude, you can believe it or not. There are some very nasty chemicals in some paint. Google "isocyanates." This is a chemical in automotive paint that is particularly nasty. It is not banned in most states, including the ones you mentioned. Go to any automotive paint shop dealer in your area and ask about isocyanates. I'm not enough of a chemist to know why it's needed, but I do know it's in all really high quality automotive paint. This stuff is so dangerous that there are instances where one exposure resulted in cancer and death within months of exposure. isocyanates are just one of the chemicals California restricts.
 

stroszek

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Dude, you can believe it or not. There are some very nasty chemicals in some paint. Google "isocyanates." This is a chemical in automotive paint that is particularly nasty. It is not banned in most states, including the ones you mentioned. Go to any automotive paint shop dealer in your area and ask about isocyanates. I'm not enough of a chemist to know why it's needed, but I do know it's in all really high quality automotive paint. This stuff is so dangerous that there are instances where one exposure resulted in cancer and death within months of exposure. isocyanates are just one of the chemicals California restricts.
Lmao yeah dude they restrict it by allowing it and putting precautions in place. It’s not banned. https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCDPHP/DEODC/OHB/HESIS/CDPH Document Library/Iso.pdf
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