Some of us just got screwed by New Jersey - but Ford is stepping up!

MachEnation

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Seconding that we all need to submit comments. Heck, I was tempted to sign up to speak -- but the hearing is at 10AM and my work might be wondering what the heck I'm doing (besides not working). I'll definitely do written comments no matter what.

At the very least, they should just do a phaseout of the cap where maybe it's 5K @ 45; 4K @ 47, etc. instead of this arbitrary $1 over 45K and you get $3K less. Idiotic. Unless you're getting cloth seats, you're cutting out a lot of the EV market with $5K at below 45, what's that the Ioniq, Bolt, Leaf, and maybe a few other slow sellers?

Looks like from the notice that they are trying to put more money into plug-in hybrid rebates. Maybe that's why they're trying to put less money into BEVs.
 

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Seconding that we all need to submit comments. Heck, I was tempted to sign up to speak -- but the hearing is at 10AM and my work might be wondering what the heck I'm doing (besides not working). I'll definitely do written comments no matter what.

At the very least, they should just do a phaseout of the cap where maybe it's 5K @ 45; 4K @ 47, etc. instead of this arbitrary $1 over 45K and you get $3K less. Idiotic. Unless you're getting cloth seats, you're cutting out a lot of the EV market with $5K at below 45, what's that the Ioniq, Bolt, Leaf, and maybe a few other slow sellers?

Looks like from the notice that they are trying to put more money into plug-in hybrid rebates. Maybe that's why they're trying to put less money into BEVs.
Keep in mind that not one NJ MME customer has received any rebates yet. Until the check shows up assume NJ is offering nothing. I wouldn’t choose my model decision based on NJ politics. I get waiting for the next round but I wouldn’t get my hopes up for it looking like the previous amounts or structure. My guess is that NJ wants to target the lower income brackets. It’s looking like it might not be about encouraging a greener environment for all. My choice to go green won’t get any help from NJ, the life of choosing the FE.
 

stephywephy88

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Seconding that we all need to submit comments. Heck, I was tempted to sign up to speak -- but the hearing is at 10AM and my work might be wondering what the heck I'm doing (besides not working). I'll definitely do written comments no matter what.

At the very least, they should just do a phaseout of the cap where maybe it's 5K @ 45; 4K @ 47, etc. instead of this arbitrary $1 over 45K and you get $3K less. Idiotic. Unless you're getting cloth seats, you're cutting out a lot of the EV market with $5K at below 45, what's that the Ioniq, Bolt, Leaf, and maybe a few other slow sellers?

Looks like from the notice that they are trying to put more money into plug-in hybrid rebates. Maybe that's why they're trying to put less money into BEVs.
There's discussion in a Tesla thread, too, so this should pick up attention, even if the efforts fail. I submitted comments to BPU this morning framing the higher costs as often related to extended battery range options. In areas of limited charging, the extra expense for ER will help ease range anxiety and increase adoption.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charge-up-nj-rebate-program-phase-2.222713/page-17
 

stephywephy88

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Not to draw this out this because NJ residents will have resolution soon enough, but the senate president’s office (also my district rep) called me today to talk about the straw proposal after I wrote to them. They are looking into it, reiterated that it IS only a straw proposal, and claim to be concerned with its potential impacts on NJ’s desire to go all electric in the future. Legislature has limited control over BPU so the comments to BPU are important (I submitted these, too). Either way, I appreciated the call.
 

MachEnation

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This is great! THanks for keeping us updated stephy! Reminder the public testimony is tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. I signed up.

https://www.nj.gov/bpu/pdf/publicnotice/EV FY22 Charge Up NJ Program Straw Proposal.pdf

If anyone wants to see the comments sent in so far, here they are. Interesting read. Tesla submitted some. They're on top of it. Nothing from any other automaker, including Ford. EDIT: these comments on electric charging stations and infrastructure, so a different program. I don't see anything on the rebate yet.
 
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MachEnation

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I just testified at the hearing. Told them they need to phase out the cap (like maybe $4K from 45-48; $3K 49-52; $2K on up)--instead of this big $3K dropoff at $45K. A lot of others shared the same sentiments so maybe they'll reconsider (although I doubt it, honestly).

I know from personal experience that finding a Mach-E below $45K is really challenging, so if they do this soft phase out that would be good for potential buyers. However, whatever they do I'll be glad to have any incentive.

Don't forget to submit comments, you can even just e-mail them.
 

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@MachEnation: Thanks for the letting us know about the meeting and for your comments. Very well said. I was on there as well.

Was pleasantly surprised that there was an overwhelming consensus from commenters about needing more transparency and disagreement with the soft-cap as currently proposed ($5K under $45k and $2k over $45k).
 
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MachEUser

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I found the dealers' association comments a little confusing and counterproductive They would like to encourage and persuade new buyers, so they are against those who pre-ordered, reserved, etc receiving the benefit. I think overall the program should be more clear and consistent. These changes, ON/OFF, etc are hard to plan around. It otherwise leaves people gaming the system, trying to time it for the incentive. The goal should be simple, to get as many EVs on the road as possible.

If it needs to be a social program too, then maybe offer additional benefits for certain income groups or some benefit on used vehicles as proposed for certain income thresholds but don't cloud the main program.

There was also someone advocating for a 40k cap which seems totally counterproductive since there are not a lot of choices at that MSRP.

It seems possible it doesn't start July 1. I wonder how many dealers will truly be ready even if it does start. They need to do some training and get familiar with the process. This will favor Tesla and large volume dealers.

I think the simplified, flat 4k or whatever amount lasts all year makes sense better than the soft cap based on MSRP. You don't want to favor the lower-end vehicles or manufacturers whose federal $7500 has expired solely if that doesn't match the national trends, etc. It is not the job of BPU to pick winners and losers. You will create malincentives if we are significantly different from what is happening nationally in terms of infrastructure, networks, vehicles, etc.
 

MachEnation

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@ MachEnation: Thanks for the letting us know about the meeting and for your comments. Very well said. I was on there as well.

Was pleasantly surprised that there was an overwhelming consensus from commenters about needing more transparency and disagreement with the soft-cap as currently proposed ($5K under $45k and $2k over $45k).
That's great, glad you were on. Yeah, I didn't really think there would be any pushback on the soft cap, so was pleasantly surprised. I think the inflation argument that one person made was also a good point.

However, if they told us that by doing this the tax credit would DEFINITELY last the entire year instead of shutting it off halfway again, I think that would have made people feel at ease. The one idea just to make it a flat "4K" across the board if that would also save money made sense too.
 

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I found the dealers' association comments a little confusing and counterproductive They would like to encourage and persuade new buyers, so they are against those who pre-ordered, reserved, etc receiving the benefit.
That wasn't my take-away from the dealer's comments.

They pointed out that the law was signed in January and the program wasn't announced/implemented until...late May?

What they objected to was people who bought prior to the program announcement basically getting out-of-the-blue rebates they were not even aware of when they made their purchase decision.

Those rebates played no role in those buyers' decision making and thus did not incentivize anything.

Those payouts contributed to the program running out of money to give people who actually factored the $5k into their purchase decision later in the year, too.
 

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That wasn't my take-away from the dealer's comments.

They pointed out that the law was signed in January and the program wasn't announced/implemented until...late May?

What they objected to was people who bought prior to the program announcement basically getting out-of-the-blue rebates they were not even aware of when they made their purchase decision.

Those rebates played no role in those buyers' decision making and thus did not incentivize anything.

Those payouts contributed to the program running out of money to give people who actually factored the $5k into their purchase decision later in the year, too.
Did those buyers know that some rebate would be retroactively given? I don't know the full details and thought process of the buyers back then but it was announced in Jan 2020. Maybe it edged people over to take a risk and buy an EV knowing they might get something back later that year. Did people assume it would be like the federal program and people would get on NJ tax return, or something like that?

"The legislation creates a “Light Duty Plug-in Electric Vehicle Rebate Program” to encourage the purchase of light-duty plug-in electric vehicles over a ten-year period. The rebates will provide up to $5,000 per vehicle and will be funded by approximately $30 million from the Clean Energy Fund each year. The bill authorizes the use of Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative funds as well."

Didn't they also mention that they didn't want people who purchased before July 1st running on back-to-back 30-day temp tags and keep doing that until they register with DMV after the program starts if the NJ registration date is the criteria used? I didn't even know you could do that but just adds to my point of people gaming the system if it is too complicated.

I just think going forward it should be a continuous program and a flat amount regardless of when you ordered/reserved, etc. Just use simple criteria like the bill of sale date and avoid people having to game the system. It should also be fair and consistent for the year. E.g you reserve in May and the car is delivered in July. They shouldn't be disqualified since it is a different fiscal year. Anyone who buys a car in the fiscal year, should qualify for the amount set for that fiscal year.

You see on the Tesla forum, people talking about canceling an order and then picking up the same vehicle. Why create this type of complexity and environment?
 

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Did those buyers know that some rebate would be retroactively given? I don't know the full details and thought process of the buyers back then but it was announced in Jan 2020. Maybe it edged people over to take a risk and buy an EV knowing they might get something back later that year. Did people assume it would be like the federal program and people would get on NJ tax return, or something like that?

"The legislation creates a “Light Duty Plug-in Electric Vehicle Rebate Program” to encourage the purchase of light-duty plug-in electric vehicles over a ten-year period. The rebates will provide up to $5,000 per vehicle and will be funded by approximately $30 million from the Clean Energy Fund each year. The bill authorizes the use of Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative funds as well."

Didn't they also mention that they didn't want people who purchased before July 1st running on back-to-back 30-day temp tags and keep doing that until they register with DMV after the program starts if the NJ registration date is the criteria used? I didn't even know you could do that but just adds to my point of people gaming the system if it is too complicated.

I just think going forward it should be a continuous program and a flat amount regardless of when you ordered/reserved, etc. Just use simple criteria like the bill of sale date and avoid people having to game the system. It should also be fair and consistent for the year. E.g you reserve in May and the car is delivered in July. They shouldn't be disqualified since it is a different fiscal year. Anyone who buys a car in the fiscal year, should qualify for the amount set for that fiscal year.

You see on the Tesla forum, people talking about canceling an order and then picking up the same vehicle. Why create this type of complexity and environment?
Yes, he took an blatant swipe at Tesla who'd lack of sales contracts allows them to game the temp registration thing to qualify for programs that weren't available at time of delivery.

They pretty much argued for everything you described.

A simple, consistent program that helps dealers sell more BEVs.

Sending checks to people who purchased without any expectation of said check does not do that.
 
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timbop

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Yes, he took an blatant swipe at Tesla who'd lack of sales contracts allows them to game the temp registration thing to qualify for programs that weren't available at time of delivery.

They pretty much argued for everything you described.

A simple, consistent program that helps dealers sell more BEVs.

Sending checks to people who purchased without any expectation of said check does not do that.
I'm curious how it is determined that people didn't know the BEV legislation was signed and thus shouldn't get a check? I saw that it was coming a few days before murphy signed the bill, and when he did sign it I posted on here immediately. I also told a buddy of mine about it at work, and he ended up buying a Hyundai in March 2020.
 

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I'm curious how it is determined that people didn't know the BEV legislation was signed and thus shouldn't get a check? I saw that it was coming a few days before murphy signed the bill, and when he did sign it I posted on here immediately. I also told a buddy of mine about it at work, and he ended up buying a Hyundai in March 2020.
I'm not making some universal claim about whether somebody who purchased a BEV between the signing of legislation and the months-later activation of the program deserved a check or not.

The question is how many of those purchases hinged on a program that hadn't officially launched yet. I think I do remember the legislation had language about including purchases prior to the program start, so yes, folks in-the-know like your buddy made a safe bet. But at the end of the day, most of those pre-launch Tesla purchases probably would have happened without the promise of the retroactive checks. And most of the cars getting incentivized - before or after program launch - were Teslas. Which I'm sure drove a lot of the saltiness of the NJ car dealer guy.

What's kind of ironic is how many Mach-E's were ordered with the incentive in mind only for folks to lose confidence it would do them any good. First the window stickers showing the Destination Fee as part of the MSRP, then the surprise shut-down in December - with a possible reversal of fortune with the 3/15 "paperwork" deadline, then the cars being pulled back to Speedway....

We still don't know if any Mach-E's delivered prior to the relaunch of the program in "summer 2021" (after the BPU meets and after the start of NJ's next fiscal year) will actually get money from NJ.

In a way, it's kind of brilliant. I mean, I placed my order - and got my wife's buy-in - when the incentive looked legit. Now with my delivery scheduled for 7/4 - 7/11, will I see $5k? $2k? $0k? Will I refuse delivery if it's $0k or $2k? Probably not and NJ will have gotten me into an EV without the extra incentive!
 
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timbop

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I'm not making some universal claim about whether somebody who purchased a BEV between the signing of legislation and the months-later activation of the program deserved a check or not.

The question is how many of those purchases hinged on a program that hadn't officially launched yet. I think I do remember the legislation had language about including purchases prior to the program start, so yes, folks in-the-know like your buddy made a safe bet. But at the end of the day, most of those pre-launch Tesla purchases probably would have happened without the promise of the retroactive checks. And most of the cars getting incentivized - before or after program launch - were Teslas. Which I'm sure drove a lot of the saltiness of the NJ car dealer guy.

What's kind of ironic is how many Mach-E's were ordered with the incentive in mind only for folks to lose confidence it would do them any good. First the window stickers showing the Destination Fee as part of the MSRP, then the surprise shut-down in December - with a possible reversal of fortune with the 3/15 "paperwork" deadline, then the cars being pulled back to Speedway....

We still don't know if any Mach-E's delivered prior to the relaunch of the program in "summer 2021" (after the BPU meets and after the start of NJ's next fiscal year) will actually get money from NJ.

In a way, it's kind of brilliant. I mean, I placed my order - and got my wife's buy-in - when the incentive looked legit. Now with my delivery scheduled for 7/4 - 7/11, will I see $5k? $2k? $0k? Will I refuse delivery if it's $0k or $2k? Probably not and NJ will have gotten me into an EV without the extra incentive!
I preordered a Select RWD in November 2019 because that's what I could get the wife to buy in on. When the $5000 incentive was announced in January I began working on the wife to agree to a Route 1 - but she still wouldn't bite because she didn't believe the state would really come through (at the time the RT1 was $2000 more than it is now). In September Ford dropped the price of the Route 1 by the $2000 and I won the day, changing my order from the Select to a Route 1 on Oct 1st.

Needless to say she was NOT happy when I had to tell her the state reneged on the $5000 and it was too late to change the order from a Route 1 because it was already in production.

Now before anyone scolds me for buying a car I can't afford, we absolutely CAN afford the car. Without going into details about her childhood I will say my wife is very frugal and before the Mach E the most expensive vehicle we ever bought was her $34,000 Durango. When I first started talking about getting a Mach E and that I wanted to get the ER AWD ($58k at the time) her head nearly exploded.
 

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