DennisD

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The knob in the MME is not attached mechanically in any way to the screen. It's just a captive knob attached by double sided tape.
And your point? A knob can be both mechanical or digital. The discussion was originally about the presence of "Knobs" and not about them being mechanical, analog or digital. A Knob was placed in lieu of/and in conjunction to solely being a touchscreen on the MME. That is one example of knobs making a comeback. People like them enough to have companies rethink getting rid of them.

Ok, so either there's a lot of malicious deceit going on or you guys just aren't reading the entire conversation. I'll assume it's the later and therefore let's get those panties out of a bunch and untangle this.

Not sure why you would make this comment or be rude... but at least you can recognize it's an opinion without me specifically stating it. Your reply in this post is completely lost on me.

You said that analog watches (with hands) are making a come back. My reply was that I don't think that's correct given the amount of digital watches being sold. So why you linked a very expensive watch makes absolutely no sense to me. Unless you are tying your statement about something making a comeback to a previous paragraph about how much things are? I think we could stick a bunch of jewels on a digital watch and sell it for stupid amounts as well if we wanted to. Not sure that means anything at all and my response to you had nothing to do with money, it's based on your comment that analog things (not digital) are making a comeback.

Then your response about gaming also makes no sense in context. Gaming has always been analog (mouse, keyboard and controller). It's moving more digital (mobile phone based). It's not moving from digital to analog at all.

In conclusion:

In summary, I can't think of anything that has gone from digital (touch screen etc) to analog (buttons) in my life. From life saving medical equipment, TVs and appliances to Airplanes things are getting more digital and less analog.

For those who think cars are going to go back to more buttons, I disagree but that's my opinion, which I'm entitled to have. You have your opinion and you're entitled to that as well. None of us can predict the future, all we can do is look at history and guess. My guess based on historical trends is that we will continue to move away from analog systems (buttons).
Calling me rude is fresh. 🙃 Admittedly I can be brash but I am not much different than you.
Glass houses my friend.

I think you are missing my point along with Ghost Ryder.

I have never implied or said that analog is making a comeback. I am simply saying that many buttons and knobs are making a comeback in some appliances and other electronics including vehicles. I simply used the watch example to emphasize that even analog is not going away anytime too soon. Now while the digital companion to watches is here to stay and is in the forefront, it certainly doesn't mean that analog is going away. The watch comparison was simply used to reinforce that people still desire them enough to pay stupid prices IMHO.

Almost all things in a vehicle is digital. Touchscreens, go pedals, turn signals, knobs etc. are all digital. Analog will not make a comeback and really has never made a comeback. The knobs however are replacing some exclusive touchscreen devices and they are all under the digital umbrella if you will (and NOT analog as you suggest). Heck, even on my Samsung smartwatch I have knobs and buttons. Why? Because people don't want exclusive touch screen with all things.

So in conclusion, your opinion is worth as much as anyone else's but you seem to portray yourself as "an educator on this forum" and many times it is an educated guess with some of the things you suggest as gospel because of your background.

I have no problem with you giving opinions but you do seem to piss a few people off with your assertive nature. I don't take it personal and actually I am fine with it because I don't mind the banter so no hard feelings on this end. ;)

Just sayin............
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DevSecOps

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Calling me rude is fresh.
Panties in a bunch is a colloquial expression. Telling me to educate myself is a bit different IMO, but I digress.

So in conclusion, your opinion is worth as much as anyone else's but you seem to portray yourself as "an educator on this forum" and many times it is an educated guess with some of the things you suggest as gospel because of your background.

I have no problem with you giving opinions but you do seem to piss a few people off with your assertive nature. I don't take it personal and actually I am fine with it because I don't mind the banter so no hard feelings on this end.
I've said no less than 5 times in this thread that it's "my opinion". If people want to get upset because I have opinions, then they need to deal with that on their own. This entire forum is based on opinions. Even the guides that I've done are based on my opinion. There's guides that have differed from mine because that was their opinion. One can educate and still have an opinion. I don't portray myself as anything other than another member. I just don't back down easily and stick to my opinions, as do you from prior experience.

So, getting back to the subject here ...

I think the problem with what you said vs what I said is the word "analog" and "digital". I correlate any physical knob with something being analog (i.e. a landline phone vs a smart phone). I know that there can be digital buttons and in retrospect I should have said buttons vs touch screen.

So to clear things up - I think that in vehicles we will see fewer and fewer buttons moving forward. I know that a lot of people like their buttons, but my opinion and my guess is that future vehicles will be very similar to what Tesla and Rivian are doing. Buttons on steering wheels, but that's about it. Everyone else is free to have their take on it, but I would put money on them going away. Not immediately and we'll go through some back and forth on it, but eventually they'll go away.
 

DennisD

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Panties in a bunch is a colloquial expression. Telling me to educate myself is a bit different IMO, but I digress.



I've said no less than 5 times in this thread that it's "my opinion". If people want to get upset because I have opinions, then they need to deal with that on their own. This entire forum is based on opinions. Even the guides that I've done are based on my opinion. There's guides that have differed from mine because that was their opinion. One can educate and still have an opinion. I don't portray myself as anything other than another member. I just don't back down easily and stick to my opinions, as do you from prior experience.

So, getting back to the subject here ...

I think the problem with what you said vs what I said is the word "analog" and "digital". I correlate any physical knob with something being analog (i.e. a landline phone vs a smart phone). I know that there can be digital buttons and in retrospect I should have said buttons vs touch screen.

So to clear things up - I think that in vehicles we will see fewer and fewer buttons moving forward. I know that a lot of people like their buttons, but my opinion and my guess is that future vehicles will be very similar to what Tesla and Rivian are doing. Buttons on steering wheels, but that's about it.
To be technical, I don't think there is such a thing as a "digital button". I could be wrong, but I think only knobs can be digital.
 

DevSecOps

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To be technical, I don't think there is such a thing as a "digital button". I could be wrong, but I think only knobs can be digital.
Wouldn't an electro-capacitive keyboard or a d-pad be considered having digital buttons? I'm not an electrical engineer so I have no idea if it's truly "digital".
 

DennisD

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Wouldn't an electro-capacitive keyboard or a d-pad be considered having digital buttons? I'm not an electrical engineer so I have no idea if it's truly "digital".
I think you are correct. I had a brain fart on that one. 👍
 


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And your point? A knob can be both mechanical or digital. The discussion was originally about the presence of "Knobs" and not about them being mechanical, analog or digital. A Knob was placed in lieu of/and in conjunction to solely being a touchscreen on the MME. That is one example of knobs making a comeback. People like them enough to have companies rethink getting rid of them.


Calling me rude is fresh. 🙃 Admittedly I can be brash but I am not much different than you.
Glass houses my friend.

I think you are missing my point along with Ghost Ryder.

I have never implied or said that analog is making a comeback. I am simply saying that many buttons and knobs are making a comeback in some appliances and other electronics including vehicles. I simply used the watch example to emphasize that even analog is not going away anytime too soon. Now while the digital companion to watches is here to stay and is in the forefront, it certainly doesn't mean that analog is going away. The watch comparison was simply used to reinforce that people still desire them enough to pay stupid prices IMHO.

Almost all things in a vehicle is digital. Touchscreens, go pedals, turn signals, knobs etc. are all digital. Analog will not make a comeback and really has never made a comeback. The knobs however are replacing some exclusive touchscreen devices and they are all under the digital umbrella if you will (and NOT analog as you suggest). Heck, even on my Samsung smartwatch I have knobs and buttons. Why? Because people don't want exclusive touch screen with all things.

So in conclusion, your opinion is worth as much as anyone else's but you seem to portray yourself as "an educator on this forum" and many times it is an educated guess with some of the things you suggest as gospel because of your background.

I have no problem with you giving opinions but you do seem to piss a few people off with your assertive nature. I don't take it personal and actually I am fine with it because I don't mind the banter so no hard feelings on this end. ;)

Just sayin............
I mention that because in your thread that I was quoting, was in reference to cost. A captive knob/button is much less expensive than one that is integrated into the screen.
 
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Well I'm certainly glad my personal experience spawned such a vigorous debate LOL.

In response to a couple comments about me:

I'm not an old dog who can't learn new tricks. I quite enjoy 95% of the tech in the Mach E, including PAAK. But learning new tricks simply for the sake of them being new is not worthwhile. What if they introduced Shoe As A Key?

I understand the difference between momentary and on-until-disengaged turn signals. My complaint is not about that.

I understand the mechanics of DC charging an EV. If you look at the figures in my original comment, the time to charge to various levels varied WIDELY, with no obvious reason. I have not experienced anything remotely similar in the Mach E.

Yes I'm aware I can read the manual or play with the screen or use Google to learn how the features all work--homework is not something I look forward to on vacation. In September, I rented a Toyota Camry, and nothing took more than about half a second to decipher. I took the time to do all that reading when we bought our Mach E, because a) I'd just spent $60,000 and b) I was planning to keep it for more than a week. I know my mileage will vary, and that my opinions aren't going to be universal. I just wanted to share my thoughts as a fellow Mach E driver for someone who hasn't had the chance to drive a Tesla Y.

Anyway, I'm happy to have had the experience driving the Y, and even happier to be back with my E.
 

curtisfinney

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Most people think that they will miss the driver display, but quickly become accustom to not having one. there are a few advantages to not having a driver display like having an unobstructed view of the road. Also I like the the air vents are right in front of you and not to the side. Also at night, you don't have lights shining back.

There's really one good reason to have a driver display and that's to display the Speed. However most of the time I drive with the flow of traffic. And if I needed to know my exact speed, it's an easy glance to the right vs. down.

As far as buttons, I prefer knobs vs. buttons. Easier to adjust without looking.
one good reason haha 🤮 it’s cost savings there is no other way to spin it. Just because Tesla does it doesn’t make it the right decision. If moving that to the center and out of the drivers direct field of view was the right thing to do, you would see more companies doing it.

Toyota used to sell a cheap car called the Echo, this had the gauge cluster in the center. You didn’t see this in their luxury cars.

Sure we can adjust, it doesn’t mean it’s the right choice.
 

curtisfinney

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I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cost of touchscreen vs. cost of buttons (which is more than just a piece of plastic). There is already a touchscreen (nobody is saying to get rid of them), so it's really cost of buttons vs. cost of... nothing. Guess which one is more expensive?
It costs a hell of a lot less to have a touchscreen and no controls. The economy of scale works really well with software. Going all digital is a cost savings spin as the wave of the future.

Hydrid is the right way to go. HVAC controls should be physical. Map and infotainment should be digital. This is the most expensive, but it’s the best at keeping eyeballs on the road.
 

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one good reason haha 🤮 it’s cost savings there is no other way to spin it. Just because Tesla does it doesn’t make it the right decision. If moving that to the center and out of the drivers direct field of view was the right thing to do, you would see more companies doing it.

Toyota used to sell a cheap car called the Echo, this had the gauge cluster in the center. You didn’t see this in their luxury cars.

Sure we can adjust, it doesn’t mean it’s the right choice.
Just because cost savings is involved, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Like removing physical keypad from phones.

I have both a MY and a MME. I prefer the benefit of not having the driver display on the Y compare to having a useless one on the MME. On hot or cold days, I love having air blow directly toward me vs through tiny vents on the side that I have to direct to my face with my hands.
 

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Well I'm certainly glad my personal experience spawned such a vigorous debate LOL.

In response to a couple comments about me:

I'm not an old dog who can't learn new tricks. I quite enjoy 95% of the tech in the Mach E, including PAAK. But learning new tricks simply for the sake of them being new is not worthwhile. What if they introduced Shoe As A Key?

I understand the difference between momentary and on-until-disengaged turn signals. My complaint is not about that.

I understand the mechanics of DC charging an EV. If you look at the figures in my original comment, the time to charge to various levels varied WIDELY, with no obvious reason. I have not experienced anything remotely similar in the Mach E.

Yes I'm aware I can read the manual or play with the screen or use Google to learn how the features all work--homework is not something I look forward to on vacation. In September, I rented a Toyota Camry, and nothing took more than about half a second to decipher. I took the time to do all that reading when we bought our Mach E, because a) I'd just spent $60,000 and b) I was planning to keep it for more than a week. I know my mileage will vary, and that my opinions aren't going to be universal. I just wanted to share my thoughts as a fellow Mach E driver for someone who hasn't had the chance to drive a Tesla Y.

Anyway, I'm happy to have had the experience driving the Y, and even happier to be back with my E.
I think a lot of the "vigorous response" has to do with the tone of your post. It reeks of tribal anti-tesla hatred. Like you made up your mind about Tesla before even driving one and found reasons to confirm your preconceptions.

It's okay to not like something, it was just he way it was presented.
 

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Most people think that they will miss the driver display, but quickly become accustom to not having one. there are a few advantages to not having a driver display like having an unobstructed view of the road. Also I like the the air vents are right in front of you and not to the side. Also at night, you don't have lights shining back.

There's really one good reason to have a driver display and that's to display the Speed. However most of the time I drive with the flow of traffic. And if I needed to know my exact speed, it's an easy glance to the right vs. down.

As far as buttons, I prefer knobs vs. buttons. Easier to adjust without looking.
I agree and would add a smaller steering wheel which is actually awesome. I didn’t have a driver display in my Prius and managed just fine.
 

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Ok, so 90% of what you just wrote is because you didn't know what to do...

This forum is proof that there's a ton of people who get a MachE who have no clue what to do at the beginning. Like the MachE to some, Tesla is also a new experience, but it doesn't mean it "sucks" IMO, it just means you need to learn how to do things a different way, embrace change and try things in a way that you might not be used to. Once you get the hang of it, a lot of things that Tesla does start to make sense.

The Key - Yes there's no FOB and PaaK works flawlessly. Most people prefer this. Obviously some people want a physical key FOB still. I agree that the key cards can be finicky.

Headlights and Wipers - All you had to to was push in the right steering wheel button and say "turn on headlights" or "turn on wipers". It's actually that easy.

Door handle on power failure - There's a manual release right under the button you can pull.

Wheel adjustment - Just like any other modern vehicle it saves it to your profile. Since it was a rental you didn't have a profile. Additionally, the steering column has easy access where it will move out of the way to get in and out. The idea here is to set it once and forget it. When you first get a Tesla it's part of the walk-through on the screen before you drive away.

Chimes - Don't tell that to some people around here who say it let's you drive while your asleep, feet out the window, sunglasses at night while playing a tambourine. Yes the driver monitoring system is annoying as all hell.

Trunk - That's not the way it's supposed to be. Someone likely jacked it up

Shifter - That's the way a lot of newer vehicles are. Rivian does the same thing and many older cars had shifters on the drive column so it's not really new.

Turn signals - You likely had a setting on that enables auto-disablement. You can change that. You could have also only done a partial push.

Charging - All of your charge sessions were past 80%. You might not know this but that's no bueno unless you want to wait a LONG time. The MachE is the same. The charge rate is decreased beyond 80% on all EVs. There was really no reason to charge when you did.

Rear view mirror - A common complaint with Tesla, I agree there.
"....and PaaK works flawlessly. Most people prefer this."
Perhaps PAAK works flawlessly with Teslas, but based on posts in this forum this is not the case for the MME.
"Most people prefer this." Is this a fact? What are the entities called who use the FOB? I know for a fact that there are such beings (on this planet). Are they eliminated when found out?
I assume some of the forum members got in their new MME and drove off knowing everything about it as we once did with all our new ice vehicles.
I was not one of those, but that does not make me clueless. I have owned my MME nearly three years now and it still has defective parts and unending OTAs which I have to run out and check to see what was turned off, what is not working, etc. Which means I still do not know the MME.
I do not think most people are interested in this sort of ordeal with a new car.
I purchased the MME believing there would be little to no repairs. All of my previous new vehicles combined did not have as many faults or repairs over the entire time of ownership as the MME has in over two and one half years of ownership. And not done yet.

(new product/model comments are not necessary)
 

DevSecOps

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"....and PaaK works flawlessly. Most people prefer this."
Perhaps PAAK works flawlessly with Teslas, but based on posts in this forum this is not the case for the MME.
"Most people prefer this." Is this a fact? What are the entities called who use the FOB? I know for a fact that there are such beings (on this planet). Are they eliminated when found out?
I assume some of the forum members got in their new MME and drove off knowing everything about it as we once did with all our new ice vehicles.
I was not one of those, but that does not make me clueless. I have owned my MME nearly three years now and it still has defective parts and unending OTAs which I have to run out and check to see what was turned off, what is not working, etc. Which means I still do not know the MME.
I do not think most people are interested in this sort of ordeal with a new car.
I purchased the MME believing there would be little to no repairs. All of my previous new vehicles combined did not have as many faults or repairs over the entire time of ownership as the MME has in over two and one half years of ownership. And not done yet.

(new product/model comments are not necessary)
I agree that the MME has PaaK issues, but we were discussing Tesla and the OP was talking about how Key Cards are finicky. My comment was basically saying that for an owner of the vehicle they wouldn't likely use a key card because they would have PaaK enabled.

PaaK comes up all the time as one of the most liked features, even on this forum for the MME given it's spotty record. But in regards to Tesla, since there's no FOB you have PaaK or a key card. I don't know of anyone who prefers the key card over PaaK. Maybe there's some out there, but I've never met one.

I feel your pain with PaaK and the MME as I'm sure others do as well.
 

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I agree that the MME has PaaK issues, but we were discussing Tesla and the OP was talking about how Key Cards are finicky. My comment was basically saying that for an owner of the vehicle they wouldn't likely use a key card because they would have PaaK enabled.

PaaK comes up all the time as one of the most liked features, even on this forum for the MME given it's spotty record. But in regards to Tesla, since there's no FOB you have PaaK or a key card. I don't know of anyone who prefers the key card over PaaK. Maybe there's some out there, but I've never met one.

I feel your pain with PaaK and the MME as I'm sure others do as well.
No pain for me with PAAK. Tried it when new, did not work reliably, shut it off permanently.
Incredibly, FOB works every time all the time.
So I guess I am found out, must be on lookout for assassins.
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