Tesla Owners Take To Reddit Asking What Happens If 'Full Self Driving' Isn't Real

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trutolife27

trutolife27

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One of the bigger problems is all of the current Tesla owners who are about to come off leases and who are getting ready to trade in their cars realize that their investment in FSD was for nothing. I did not add any additional value to their cars at trade in time.
The really bad part is it can't be passed to anyone else also.
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ab13

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In other news, Honda received SAE level 3 certification in Japan by the Japanese government. A limited number of lease vehicles will be available to consumers. Seems like Super cruise with hands free and automatic lane change ability, but level 3 part is traffic jam pilot, so you could watch videos, hands free during that mode. I expect this is the route most companies will use, this level of features covers most distance travel and commute "headaches."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-a-big-step-for-autonomous-tech-idUSKBN2AW0TZ
 

DBC

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Simple answer to the legal question -- Tesla will go with the Sydney Powell defense. Something along the lines of: "Elon has been proven to be so FOS on so many occasions that no reasonable person would have believed his claims to be truthful." ;)

NOTE: I think he does great things BTW but honestly and truthfulness are not his forte.
 

TheSteelRider

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There is a video on it here that was banned from youtube on Tesla self driving



video
Great video, thanks for sharing! It highlights my main complain I opined about in this thread (and in another thread in response to that other poster that was referenced). Tesla (through Elon Musk) is selling a product / service and *is* announcing a release date. Yes, their website does not list a release date. BUT, their CEO *repeatedly* gives interviews as shown in that video claiming a forthcoming release date.

The video highlights a curious timing event that I had not noticed before, namely in the midst of enormous Model 3 spending is when they started pushing FSD / Robotaxi's *hard* and doubled-down on the release date again. The video insinuates that this was done on purpose to raise cash. I can't speculate on that and I am not an accountant, but at least in GAAP accounting, I'm fairly sure they can't recognize any of that FSD revenue. Anyone who is an actual accountant please chime in here. (Yes, I realize even though they cannot claim it as revenue under GAAP, it does provide them with cash-on-hand).

All that said, good on Tesla for pioneering FSD though. I wish them luck, but my personal view is it is going to be a long and difficult road for them. Only time will tell though, and we are all just looking into our crystal balls.
 

DBC

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Seems like Super cruise with hands free and automatic lane change ability, but level 3 part is traffic jam pilot, so you could watch videos, hands free during that mode.
It might be Super Cruise or a derivative. Honda has licensed (is sharing?) this technology from GM. I'm assuming that if it had the technology referenced in the article it wouldn't have done that.
 


DBC

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I can't speculate on that and I am not an accountant, but at least in GAAP accounting, I'm fairly sure they can't recognize any of that FSD revenue.
The numbers you see in discussions about Tesla aren't GAAP.
 

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It's interesting, so much of Tesla's success is based upon absolutely excellent marketing. But in terms of advanced self-driving, arguably GM (sorry, gm) is in the lead right now with SuperCruise where the driver can pay the least attention (i.e. no hands on the steering wheel) while the car drives itself. Hopefully, Ford will catch up this summer when the Mach-E gets similar capability. But without exaggeration, does GM's SuperCruise even get 1% of the attention/interest of consumers compared to Tesla? I don't think so, and that difference comes down to marketing success.

I have no idea if Tesla has been sued for false advertising or the like. I'm sure many have tried, but there is a big practical hurdle Tesla places in front of its buyers - that is the arbitration agreement which people must agree to when they buy the car. Arbitration means you cannot fight a lawsuit in court and cannot have it proceed as a class action (meaning a group lawsuit). Problem is, without it being a class action, a lawsuit is often not feasible where there aren't huge damages at stake (because how much would smoking wet Tesla really owe one person if they brought a suit, a $10,000 refund and maybe some other add-ons? - makes it hard to justify the cost of a lawyer).

Arbitration is also completely stacked against a consumer. Even though they are supposed to be neutral like a judge, arbitrators are typically paid by the company defending the suit. John Smith might have one lawsuit in their entire life against Tesla (or another automaker), but Tesla would be a repeat player with hundreds if not thousands of such suits each year. Arbitrators want the repeat business and will not bite the hand that feeds. You are much more likely to encounter a 'kangaroo court' type of setting with arbitration versus being in a real court.

Anyway, below is Tesla's arbitration agreement (part of their Motor Vehicle Order Agreement). I'm not sure if Ford has a similar thing for buyers, it would be harder given that the cars are sold from the dealers not the car manufacturer. However, before anyone celebrates, check out your dealer sale's contract fine print - the dealership industry is also big on arbitration agreements, though this maybe only applies to sales related claims, not issues with the car itself, not sure. Unfortunately, arbitration has become very big with corporate America over the last ten years ever since the Supreme Court allowed arbitration agreements to prevent class action lawsuits (the case was AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion for anyone interested - thanks Judge Scalia) and these are not limited to the car industry (or even people just buying stuff, many employers require it from their employees now too as a condition of employment).

Anyway here is the text of Tesla arbitration agreement:

Agreement to Arbitrate. Please carefully read this provision, which applies to any dispute between you and Tesla, Inc. and its affiliates, (together “Tesla”). If you have a concern or dispute, please send a written notice describing it and your desired resolution to [email protected]. If not resolved within 60 days, you agree that any dispute arising out of or relating to any aspect of the relationship between you and Tesla will not be decided by a judge or jury but instead by a single arbitrator in an arbitration administered by the American Arbitration Association (AAA) under its Consumer Arbitration Rules. This includes claims arising before this Agreement, such as claims related to statements about our products. We will pay all AAA fees for any arbitration, which will be held in the city or county of your residence. To learn more about the Rules and how to begin an arbitration, you may call any AAA office or go to www.adr.org. The arbitrator may only resolve disputes between you and Tesla, and may not consolidate claims without the consent of all parties. The arbitrator cannot hear class or representative claims or requests for relief on behalf of others purchasing or leasing Tesla vehicles. In other words, you and Tesla may bring claims against the other only in your or its individual capacity and not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action. If a court or arbitrator decides that any part of this agreement to arbitrate cannot be enforced as to a particular claim for relief or remedy, then that claim or remedy (and only that claim or remedy) must be brought in court and any other claims must be arbitrated. If you prefer, you may instead take an individual dispute to small claims court. You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont, CA 94539-7970, stating your name, Vehicle Identification Number, and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not opt out, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in a lease or finance contract.
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