Tesla Owners Take To Reddit Asking What Happens If 'Full Self Driving' Isn't Real

[trutolife27]

I wouldn’t call what’s happening a meltdown exactly, maybe more of a collective moment of clarity. Right now on Reddit’s r/teslamotors forum there’s an intense and very serious conversation about the now-$10,000 level 2 driver assist package that Tesla calls “Full Self-Driving” (FSD)—specifically, whether the features Tesla and Elon Musk started promising back in 2016 will ever actually exist, and what kind of legal exposure Tesla has if it fails to deliver. People have put down real money and haven’t yet gotten what they were expecting, which has led to these difficult conversations.

The original poster said they were motivated to start the thread because of Ford PR rep Mike Levine’s description of Tesla’s “FSD” system as “vaporware,” which had sparked a lot of debate about “FSD’s” status as vaporware or not within the Tesla community.

Here’s how the poster explains it:

Serious: What is Tesla’s exposure if FSD doesn’t make it to owner’s hands?
This might not be the right forum, but I’m curious if anyone has done a semi-academic study of the legal and financial exposure to Tesla and perhaps Elon himself if the FSD continues to push? I understand that is a complicated question because Tesla itself isn’t overly forthcoming and the reasons for pushing could vary wildly from bugs to government intervention.

I’m often chastised by other owners for taking a serious rather than optimistic view on the company, but it seems to me that the FSD presales constitute a contractual obligation for a specific set of features and that at some point the failure to deliver on those promises is a breach of contract subject to not just refunds, but perhaps penalties and other legal action

This is an entirely valid question to ask, especially if you’ve coughed up ten grand (plus the cost of the car) for a suite of technological capabilities that you’ve yet to see. The OP isn’t just concerned about that, though; they’re also concerned about the potential liability for Tesla as a company if it fails to deliver on its “FSD” promises.

There’s also a lot of talk about exactly what Tesla actually promises when you pre-order “FSD,” though this really shouldn’t cause all that much debate, as Tesla’s own website lays it out pretty clearly:


Screenshot: Tesla

“All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.”

This sure sounds like full, Level 5 autonomy, with descriptions like “The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat” and “All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go.”

The system is nowhere near that yet.

Other parts of Tesla’s site break “FSD” down into seven distinct modules:


Screenshot: Tesla

A lot of the responses are suggesting class action lawsuits may be possible, despite Tesla’s legal disclaimers, partially because Elon Musk’s tweets and other comments about “FSD’s” capabilities and timeline make a lot of very specific claims:

“A big, fat class action. Tesla’s disclaimers don’t protect them from legal action, especially given Elon’s tweets.”

An example of an Elon tweet could be this one, from 2018:


Okay, he did hedge with “probably” there, but in this 2019 Q4 Earnings Call, he said

“We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I’m certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year”

Yeah, maybe don’t sleep in your Tesla just yet.

The mention of “regulators” in the above tweet is notable as well, because of how often the concept of regulatory delays seems to come up when Tesla talks about “FSD.”

It’s mentioned on the Reddit discussion a number of times, and the idea that regulatory issues are what’s holding “FSD” back is hinted at on Tesla’s site, in the beginning of a video showing off “FSD’s” capabilities:


Screenshot: Tesla

The problem is that, as is also mentioned in that Reddit thread, there are currently no Federal regulations regarding autonomous vehicles. Some states have regulations, but many of those states, including Florida and Michigan, allow autonomous vehicles to be driven on public roads. Tennessee even has legislation prohibiting local governments from banning AVs.

If anything is keeping “FSD” from being delivered, it’s not the government.

What makes this thread interesting is that it’s a good reminder that as often as we may talk about hardcore, cultish Tesla Stans, the actual owners are, of course, by no means a monolithic bloc.

This thread reads like a lot of intelligent people with disposable income who want to see autonomous vehicles come to market, and who made a hopeful, expensive decision to trust in what they were told was coming. Now they’re not so sure.

Of course, ardent Tesla defenders are there, too, even the ones that seem to have a reasonably clear view about the situation:

“I agree that Elon has been overly optimistic about the state of Full Self Driving. However, it’s clear to me (or at least it was) that I was paying for a suite of really neat driver automation features with an absolutely killer ADAS with the potential to get even more driver automation up to L5 when it becomes available.
I think the heartburn around this feature really comes from the feature’s name. FSD and Autopilot are crazy optimistic names for what they currently provide. But that’s what I love about Tesla and why I purchased one (and, later, stocks in the company). They take moonshots in so many places. The Model 3’s interior is dead-simple because it’s built for a universe where you don’t drive yourself. Same deal for the Model S and its integrated yoke and Smart Shift. You have to do crazy shit like this to make the future happen.”

So, this commenter agrees that Autopilot and “FSD” names are “crazy optimistic,” but still finds that to be something they “love about Tesla.”

At one point, the OP is asked “what’s your purpose,” to which they respond

“The discussion of FSD status, timeframe, and if progress is reasonable has been had many times here and other places. I find that it usually devolves into a shouting match between the two groups well represented here, that being the mass of people who border on Elon worshipers and those that feel wronged/misled by him. I experienced something very similar to that in a FB thread for my local Tesla owner’s group only two days ago.
I am trying to engage in a more thoughtful evaluation of what is going on from a non-technical perspective. In particular, I’m trying to make a determination in my own mind if what is going on here is reasonable and justifiable or if there is something nefarious afoot. It is easy to make accusations or draw conclusions based on preconceived biases about this. I’m hoping to be more factual about it.”

I’ve tried to quote some key parts here, but I think if you’re remotely interested in the development of autonomy and Tesla in particular, this is a very interesting thread to read.

There’s so much going on here, and so many questions raised. Is “FSD” a genuinely earnest project with real goals and deliverables, or an elaborate scam to get a lot of money while delivering nothing?

Is it real but just very behind schedule and suffering from Elon’s frequent overhyping and over-promising? Like when he claimed Teslas were appreciating assets because they’d soon be able to earn money for their owners as self-driving robotaxis?

Would buyers of “FSD” pre-orders able to file a class-action lawsuit if the promised capabilities aren’t delivered? Is Tesla protected from this? Would it cripple the company?

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[TheSteelRider]

If Tesla would advertise FSD purchase as an "investment in FSD development" with a big, bold, "sign here to acknowledge" disclaimer like, "FSD may take years to develop and may never reach the stated capability" I would have no issue.

It's the part where they describe almost L5 (as the OP posted) and the fact that Elon repeatedly tweets and says in interviews it is "this year" or "next year" for the past 4-5 years.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

The original poster said they were motivated to start the thread because of Ford PR rep Mike Levine’s description of Tesla’s “FSD” system as “vaporware,” which had sparked a lot of debate about “FSD’s” status as vaporware or not within the Tesla community.

huh. almost like his tweet had the intended impact. like he was a communications professional or something. but that would be crazytalk.

 

[mixduptransistor]

Elon's tweeting will be a huge liability when the inevitable lawsuit happens. I'm not sure what the lawyers are waiting on, I suppose someone to build up a strong enough short position to finance the suit. They've already blown through all kinds of deadlines that Musk has promised, and the way he promises absolute top level autonomy, that is going to completely invalidate any disclaimers they bury in the fine print

There's a lot more chatter about this lately, and the filing they made with the feds about how this will never be completely autonomous is probably adding snow to the ball rolling down the hill

 

[trutolife27]

Elon's tweeting will be a huge liability when the inevitable lawsuit happens. I'm not sure what the lawyers are waiting on, I suppose someone to build up a strong enough short position to finance the suit. They've already blown through all kinds of deadlines that Musk has promised, and the way he promises absolute top level autonomy, that is going to completely invalidate any disclaimers they bury in the fine print

There's a lot more chatter about this lately, and the filing they made with the feds about how this will never be completely autonomous is probably adding snow to the ball rolling down the hill

That is my biggest problem. Some people have been waiting 5 years for this and nothing. Like the guy said on youtube. He has 82,000 miles in his tesla and its 5 years old. He wants to trade it in.

It is like buying a lawn mower and it supposes to cut the grass all by itself in 5 years. But we need you to pay a big price up front. It was a pawn move the whole way.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

That is my biggest problem. Some people have been waiting 5 years for this and nothing. Like the guy said on youtube. He has 82,000 miles in his tesla and its 5 years old. He wants to trade it in.

It is like buying a lawn mower and it supposes to cut the grass all by itself in 5 years. But we need you to pay a big price up front. It was a pawn move the whole way.

no no no they all knew it was not promised and it was just basic Level 2 just ask at-LagerHead or something ???

it's amazing how the Stans are going through more and more gyrations.

 

[sockmeister]

Ok this is from Jalopnik's Jason Torchinsky. Sorry if I missed the link. I was looking for the article to read comments on *that*.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that Elon overpromises far too much. It could get him in hot water.

On the other hand, really, all of us have to thank him for bringing us the Mach-E, there is no doubt about that.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-owners-take-to-reddit-asking-what-happens-if-full-1846553907

 

[ay221]

There is a video on it here that was banned from youtube on Tesla self driving



video

 

[ChasingCoral]

The problem is that, as is also mentioned in that Reddit thread, there are currently no Federal regulations regarding autonomous vehicles. Some states have regulations, but many of those states, including Florida and Michigan, allow autonomous vehicles to be driven on public roads. Tennessee even has legislation prohibiting local governments from banning AVs.

NHTSA Proposes Rule on Safe Deployment of Self-Driving Vehicles
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=85f70f0a-11bf-497b-add8-43fc6293c4a2

NTSB asks NHTSA for more self-driving car rules, citing Tesla's 'Full Self-Driving' beta
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...r-rules-citing-teslas-full-self-driving-beta/

Government Agencies Clash over How Much to Regulate Self-Driving Cars
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35844915/ntsb-letter-nhtsa-self-driving-vehicles/

 

[wareagle1440]

So what is important in these matters is what the actual contract says and is it conspicuous when the person who agrees to the matter signs it. For starters this is almost for sure going to arbitration which favors Tesla is a major way. Arbitration is not cheaper nor faster but it is favorable to the company as it removes normal people from the equation and inserts a lawyer or former judge with years of experience and bias into the equation. And trust me no one is more arrogant with less information than a lawyer (Doctors are a 1B). IF there is a a merger clause in the contract, then it is irrelevant, for the most part, what musk says in public because the merger clause says that the only language that matters is that which is within the four corners of the contract unless a modification is agreed to in writing. And a first year law student knows to put a merger clause in a contract.

What his tweets might get in trouble with is market manipulation because he is manipulating the consumer with false information. That could hypothetically negate contracts of people who relied upon his words unless of course the contract makes a clear contradiction to his public words.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

What his tweets might get in trouble with is market manipulation because he is manipulating the consumer with false information. That could hypothetically negate contracts of people who relied upon his words unless of course the contract makes a clear contradiction to his public words.

eh, the SEC already reached an "agreement" with him that he's already violated repeatedly with no impact. seems pretty clear that like so much other market manipulation going on nowadays, he'll be able to get away with all of it.

I of course hope to be proven wrong here, but I suspect I won't be.

 

[wareagle1440]

eh, the SEC already reached an "agreement" with him that he's already violated repeatedly with no impact. seems pretty clear that like so much other market manipulation going on nowadays, he'll be able to get away with all of it.

I of course hope to be proven wrong here, but I suspect I won't be.

Market manipulation is hard to prove and it is made worse with the incestuous relationship the regulators have with these companies that hire them when they leave public service. And technically Musk isn't manipulating the market because that deals with security prices. he's technically advertising falsely (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/...ing, or which,devices, services, or cosmetics.)

In order to prove that you have to prove it was a false advertisement:
15 USC Section 55 (a)(1) defines "false advertisement" as "an advertisement, other than labeling, which is misleading in a material respect; and in determining whether any advertisement is misleading, there shall be taken into account (among other things) not only representations made or suggested by statement, word, design, device, sound, or any combination thereof, but also the extent to which the advertisement fails to reveal facts material in the light of such representations or material with respect to consequences which may result from the use of the commodity to which the advertisement relates under the conditions prescribed in said advertisement, or under such conditions as are customary or usual."

The legal question for me is this: if the consumer has a chance to see in the contract that what Musk said is not true and still moves forward then does that abrogate the misrepresentation of his words?

 

[Billyk24]

Elon's tweeting will be a huge liability when the inevitable lawsuit happens. I'm not sure what the lawyers are waiting on, I suppose someone to build up a strong enough short position to finance the suit. They've already blown through all kinds of deadlines that Musk has promised, and the way he promises absolute top level autonomy, that is going to completely invalidate any disclaimers they bury in the fine print

There's a lot more chatter about this lately, and the filing they made with the feds about how this will never be completely autonomous is probably adding snow to the ball rolling down the hill

2018 Tesla stated a Model S would soon drive itself across the country. Soon is 4 years ago and level3 of autonomic driving has yet to be certified by the California DOT. Multiple Tesla cars have had more than one owner pay for fsd! Tesla is unable to deliver on their claims. All of this was PR to boost stock price and to raise cssh.

 

[fayt349]

This is why I traded my model 3 for the Mach E. Tesla put way too much emphasis on self driving. The boring minimalism was because "the driver doesn't need anything if the car is driving itself", words from Elon.

Yet the self driving is not there. My car would phantom brake on it's own and it would scare the hell out of me too.

I'm SO much happier with my Ford. It feels like it was meant for driving. Not sitting there and watching the car drive itself. More fun to drive too!

 

[mburtsvt]

One of the bigger problems is all of the current Tesla owners who are about to come off leases and who are getting ready to trade in their cars realize that their investment in FSD was for nothing. I did not add any additional value to their cars at trade in time.

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