Tesla Supercharging costs per kWh are now while Electrify America is:

dbsb3233

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800+ mile Cannonball Run-style road trips are an outlier and not the norm. With a 20-25min recharge stop vs. a typical 10min stop on a road trip, you're looking at a time difference of maybe an hour or so over the same distance.
Long trip are certainly an outlier for most people, that's true. Which is why BEVs are a great fit as a 2nd car for around-home use, where for most people do 95% of their driving. And thus can put the vast majority of their miles on electricity.

The longer the drive, the more compromising there is for a BEV road trip. The long charge times are only part of the compromise. It's the quantity of them that can be the real killer, because of short range at highway speeds. Two 20-40 minute stops on a drive is one thing, but 6 of them is quite another.

Not that some people won't gladly take on that challenge, of course. But it will continue to be an impediment for a lot of mainstream car buyers IMO. It'll be interesting to see the growth path from here for BEVs vs PHEVs.
 

NEMuskRat

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My home in Pa to northern Wi is greater than 800 miles. I can not remember taking a 10 minute break using ice, hybrid or plug in hybrid vehicles. 20 to 30 minutes is realistic. Lack of sufficient number of chargers will make stops mandatory at certain locations and hopefully no waiting for a free spot at the charger.
I have to agree. I would make trips from Mass to lower FL (without my wife) & and have to stop longer than 10 minutes even just getting off for food, bathroom & fuel. Vehicles would get close to or over 500 miles per tank because of either large tank or Hybrid.
Probably better off for body especially now that I am older to make me stop longer just to stretch. :D
 

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That would certainly be a big improvement. Although to keep it in perspective... it's still a long way from a 3 minute gas refuel to 100% (in a car that cost $20k less to purchase).

That significant gap will continue to be a major impediment.
I hear you but EV owners need to remember the trade offs....no oil changes, no brake services, no transmission changes, etc. And overall cheaper energy costs. So is that worth 10-15 minutes longer on a road trip stop? Trade offs....
 

dbsb3233

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I hear you but EV owners need to remember the trade offs....no oil changes, no brake services, no transmission changes, etc. And overall cheaper energy costs. So is that worth 10-15 minutes longer on a road trip stop? Trade offs....
Oh it should all be factored in, I agree. Of course, so should the extra ~$20K of purchase price of most BEVs relative to the comparable ICE. Even with tax credits, it's hard to get to break-even on the total price picture unless one is a high mileage driver. At least for a vehicle like the Mach-e.

A Premium AWD ER Mach-e is around $60k. -$7500 if you can get one while the federal tax credit still exists. A similar ICE car with similar features could arguably be had for around $40k. Then factor in savings from fuel (~$800/yr for average miles driven) and maintenance. Maybe around break-even after a decade (although things like higher insurance, loan interest, etc all factor in there too). Unless one drives very high mileage (or sticks to a cheaper BEV like a Bolt), I really don't think it's cheaper in total for the average driver.

But that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile for the right usages, of course. Which is why I'm buying one as my primary around-home car. It'll actually be more expensive for me but I like some of the intangibles. However the compromises required for long distance driving will cause me to leave it in the garage and take the ICE on road trips that require more than 1 or 2 public charges. One or two lengthy charges isn't so bad. It's needing MANY of them if I go very far at highway speeds that's the real drag. High speed is a killer on BEV range.

Which is also why I'll probably save the $5000 by forgoing the ER battery. I don't anticipate taking hardly and road trips with it, and the few shorter ones I might consider don't really justify the extra $5000. Which just means it's even less likely I'll use it on road trips with SR range instead of ER.
 
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Trekkie

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We did a 2300 mile round trip road trip over christmas, while it wasn't with the Mach E it was with the 'short range' Model x (250 best or so miles range, not that much when it's cold)

I used Tesla's superchargers along the route, and since I have an X it didn't cost me anything (yay). I'm still crunching the numbers, but at a rough glance over two days I'm looking at about a three hour difference. In 20 hours of driving...

Things my wife commented on:

The stops were less chaotic (we have four children). We did everything at the stop. and the longest stop was 45m because we ate while charging.

I'll post more details once I have it all added up. I have the data from my previous years trip with a 2016 Ford Expedition EL that we traded on the X. I'm not seeing some ridiculous difference. The X charges on average 65KW or so, depending on how low the battery was. We were stopping about every 150 miles or so with 20% to 15%, as it was cold and I didn't want to push it to <10%.
 

theothertom

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Thanks @Trekkie, for the detailed report. It's good to get actual data like this. One minor point, I assume your 20 hours of driving covered half your trip, not the full 2300 mile round trip. And was the 3 hour charge time for half the trip, or the full 2300 miles?
 

Trekkie

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3 was for the first day, sorry I haven't gotten everything added up yet. I have the data from taking the same trip the year before in my Expedition EL and keep getting sidetracked in my comparison. I even have my stops times in the Expedition so will have a good 'filling gas' vs 'stopping to charge' time comparison.
 

buzznwood

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I hear you but EV owners need to remember the trade offs....no oil changes, no brake services, no transmission changes, etc. And overall cheaper energy costs. So is that worth 10-15 minutes longer on a road trip stop? Trade offs....
I know everyone likes to show everything of in the best light but a BEV need servicing, and unless your are driving in the dirtiest conditions while stuck in hour long traffic jams it is time to stop this myth of oil change costs the oils of today make 10k+ oil changes pretty normal its not the 60's anymore, changing oil every 3k under normal driving conditions is utter madness.

In regards to brakes, it all depends if you do 90% of your braking using regen then you have got to deal with rust problems, Porsche may have added a special coating to help but I doubt ford will, and carbon ceramics are not exactly going to be a cheap option.

For local journeys a BEV is perfect which is what I will be using the mach-e for no need to worry about adjusting your schedule to avoid traffic as crawling along in traffic is what a BEV is made perfect for.

Will I do a long journey in the mach-e I would probably give it a go, but with friends that are hard core tesla owners even they have resorted to taking an ICE for the long stuff, when there are lots of chargers on route they can easily stop off and top off so not to much of a delay the problems are when there are long distances between the chargers and needing to go beyond 80% charge to reach them unless you want to crawl along at a snails pace on the highway.

One plus point is as battery tech gets better there will come a point where we will hopefully be able to swap out the pack for a similar sized one which has 600+ miles of range :)
 

dbsb3233

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One plus point is as battery tech gets better there will come a point where we will hopefully be able to swap out the pack for a similar sized one which has 600+ miles of range :)
That's another reason I'm leaning heavily toward just saving the $5000 and not getting the ER battery pack now. The difference between ER and SR range (especially at 75-80 MPH) isn't enough to make me decide to use the Mach-e on a long road trip. And my around-home drives will be well under 100 miles (which the SR is plenty for).

But who knows about 5 years from now. Batteries may improve enough and fall enough in price that I could get 400+ miles of range for not much more than the $5000 upgrade today.
 

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I am not hopeful that any automotive vendor will make battery swaps a reality. Think about all the products we buy today with Li batteries -- phones, laptops, drones, headphones, etc. Now, name any one of those in the last decade that suddenly released a new battery that you could swap in.

Now, I know consumer products are way cheaper, and one might say, but this is a $50k vehicle. I'll give you that, but I challenge you to name a BEV that has done the same? Start with the EV-1, Honda Insight, include PHEVs like the Prius, and of course include the beloved and supposed market leader Tesla who by all accounts walks on water for their customers. Which one of those has released a battery swap for their older vehicles?

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. In today's economy, companies just don't keep upgrading old products, even expensive ones like cars. I'm simply being realistic and recommending that, if you don't like the range that will come at launch, don't buy it in anticipation that the range gets any better, EVER. Buy a vehicle for the NOW.
 

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I am not hopeful that any automotive vendor will make battery swaps a reality. Think about all the products we buy today with Li batteries -- phones, laptops, drones, headphones, etc. Now, name any one of those in the last decade that suddenly released a new battery that you could swap in.

Now, I know consumer products are way cheaper, and one might say, but this is a $50k vehicle. I'll give you that, but I challenge you to name a BEV that has done the same? Start with the EV-1, Honda Insight, include PHEVs like the Prius, and of course include the beloved and supposed market leader Tesla who by all accounts walks on water for their customers. Which one of those has released a battery swap for their older vehicles?

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. In today's economy, companies just don't keep upgrading old products, even expensive ones like cars. I'm simply being realistic and recommending that, if you don't like the range that will come at launch, don't buy it in anticipation that the range gets any better, EVER. Buy a vehicle for the NOW.
Ok I'm game: Ford with the Focus Electric.

Granted it wasn't an "option" to upgrade the battery but if you had the $$ you could purchase the new, larger battery, and get it in your Focus. I don't think anyone did that other than the few who had their batteries replaced under warranty when they failed (the new battery was "larger" than the old one 33.5 kWh vs 23 kWh but it was a drop-in replacement).
 

timbop

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It is entirely possible that a cottage industry made up of third parties will develop over time, just like with ICEs. You can STILL find original style mustangs on the road, and that is only possible through essentially replacing the guts of the drivetrains. In the case of an EV there are far fewer components that would need to be replaced. It is likely that battery technology will continue to get cheaper, to the point that replacing the battery may only cost a few thousand dollars.
 

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I don't disagree, simply saying it might not be a good idea to buy a BEV, if the justification for it is, "One day battery tech will get better and I'll swap the battery". Buy it for "now", and in 10 years if there happens to be a better battery made, and you can swap it, then swap it. Just don't buy it "now" with any expectations of the future.
 

dbsb3233

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In my case it's not about buying the BEV or not, but buying the ER battery or not. The BEV itself is plenty useful enough to buy as an around-home vehicle. Neither current battery is sufficient enough for my long road trips though. It would be cool if in 5 years a battery upgrade did though. Especially if it didn't cost much more that the $5000 ER battery upgrade does now.

But I'm sure not counting on that. As you say, what counts most is whether it's useful enough as it is.
 
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20,000mile oilchange interval on the Ford Cmax energi.
 

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