The GT never had a 5 second limit

[DevSecOps]

I am merely going off the thread title for my assertion of a "5 second limit".

Once again, it is heat. That is the only thing they (Ford) are concerned with. Ford is covering their ass against premature failure of warranted parts therefore, they "limit" the damage of this with their set limit of 72 mph.

I actually read the opening post which is more insightful than a title. But, If we go based on just the title then it's wrong. There is a 5 second limit, if conditions are correct from a hard acceleration starting at 0mph. The "why" doesn't matter. The OP isn't arguing why it happens, he's saying it doesn't happen. You claim it's heat, but in reality that just a guess, probably correct, but just a guess.

73 mph is where we get a set of bars under ANY condition. Why we get those, who cares, we get them nonetheless. At 80mph we get more. Those are 100% speed determined limits. They happen every time. What the underlying factor is behind those limits, only Ford knows and they haven't told us, so I'm not going to assume.

5 seconds of full acceleration in optimal conditions leads to bars in addition to those speed determined limited bars.

So, once again, yes there are speed determinate bars and there are also bars that appear due to the result of hard acceleration from 0mph under the right conditions (5 seconds into the event) as has been documented by many, many, many, publications, forum members, track reports and as has been confirmed by Ford to the media and published on their website (since removed). I even show this in a video on page 3, but yet here we are ... still.

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[DennisD]

I actually read the opening post which is more insightful than a title. But, If we go based on just the title then it's wrong. There is a 5 second limit, if conditions are correct from a hard acceleration starting at 0mph. The "why" doesn't matter. The OP isn't arguing why it happens, he's saying it doesn't happen. You claim it's heat, but in reality that just a guess, probably correct, but just a guess.

73 mph is where we get a set of bars under ANY condition. Why we get those, who cares, we get them nonetheless. At 80mph we get more. Those are 100% speed determined limits. They happen every time. What the underlying factor is behind those limits, only Ford knows and they haven't told us, so I'm not going to assume.

5 seconds of full acceleration in optimal conditions leads to bars in addition to those speed determined limited bars.

So, once again, yes there are speed determinate bars and there are also bars that appear due to the result of hard acceleration from 0mph under the right conditions as has been documented by many, many, many, publications and as has been confirmed by Ford.

Yes, the limits kick in at 5 seconds.
Yes, the limits kick in at 72 mph.

Ford doesn't care nor did they base their results off these conditions.

While I can't argue the above points, Ford did not set these limits arbitrarily based off of speed or time.

Ford is only worried about the premature failure of parts. Period. ?

The limits were not designed for time or mph but rather harm i.e. heat.

So in conclusion, the thread title is technically correct. There was no 5 second limit but rather a limit of failure (which just happens to occur at around 5 seconds/72 mph on hard acceleration)

Let me put it another way. Many people think the hot water freezes at a faster rate because they see hot water pipes freeze and burst before cold water pipes in many cases.

In actuality, cold water freezes first but because it is used more frequently, the pressure is released from the pipes (pressure causes pipes to burst) and the hot water pipes remain pressurized through lack of use and freeze first but not because it is hot, but rather it's use or lack thereof.

Many people think that there is a 5 second limit but in reality it is more due to the heat generated and not the time or mph. The speed did not determine these limits. It instead was the result of other limits. It was heat IMHO.

 

[DevSecOps]

We make progress here:

Yes, the limits kick in at 5 seconds.
Yes, the limits kick in at 72 mph.

Then you kill all progress here:

While I can't argue the above points, Ford did not set these limits arbitrarily based off of speed or time.

The above statement about limits is incorrect. If you don't have a GT you can't see this, but I'm telling you that no matter what conditions you drive the car in, if you drive like grandma, drive in zero degree or 100 degree conditions 73mph triggers bars. It's 100% based on the fact that you hit 73mph. When you hit 80, you get a couple more. No matter the conditions. The battery could be ice cold, but at those speeds you get bars, no matter the conditions. So yes, someone at Ford said, at 73 mph we are going to limit power.

So in conclusion, the thread title is technically correct. There was no 5 second limit but rather a limit of failure (which just happens to occur at around 5 seconds/72 mph on hard acceleration)

No, it's not. There is a 5 second limit. It's been confirmed, directly from Ford. Sure it's probably an algorithm based on a number of factors because different levels of acceleration have different results, but it's a limit given optimal conditions. It's always assumed to be a 0-(whatever you can get to) full throttle event. When we talk about the 5 second limit, no one ever assumes this is from 50-100mph. Everyone knows it's from a 0mph start as if you're attempting to do a 1/4 mile trap. That's where this has been tested many, many times, on the track and doing traps. 72/73/80 mph have nothing to do with this. Nothing, zero, zilch. Those are different limits.

If the title of this thread was "The GT has a number of limits" I would agree 100%. Saying that the limit doesn't exist is wrong. It doesn't really matter if you call it something else, we are talking about the limit of a hard acceleration event in optimal conditions where power is limited at 5 seconds. The OP asserts that this happens because we hit 72mph. That is the premise of this thread and that is wrong. The 73mph limit is a different limit entirely. I actually went out at night, made a video to prove this, yet no one wants to comment on that. Facts don't seem to matter.

Be more than happy to go make another video showing that:

72 = no bars
73 = 2 bars
back to 72 = no bars
back to 73 = 2 bars

Many people think the hot water freezes at a faster rate because they see hot water pipes freeze and burst before cold water pipes in many cases.

Unless you have a recirc pump, the water in the hot water pipes is just as cold as that on the cold water side if it's not being used. Yes, non-moving water will freeze before moving water, but conditions being the same, both pipes would freeze at the same time. If people think hot water freezes faster then they are just not well informed about how plumbing systems work. Likewise it takes longer for larger pipes to freeze vs smaller pipes because of volume.

 

[KevinS]

It's too bad that the jailbars aren't part of the interface on the non GT models, because it would be fascinating to see the differences between the different configurations.

Maybe there's a reason Ford doesn't want to show them. ((cue conspiracy music)) ?

 

[DennisD]

We make progress here:

Then you kill all progress here:


The above statement about limits is incorrect. If you don't have a GT you can't see this, but I'm telling you that no matter what conditions you drive the car in, if you drive like grandma, drive in zero degree or 100 degree conditions 73mph triggers bars. It's 100% based on the fact that you hit 73mph. When you hit 80, you get a couple more. No matter the conditions. The battery could be ice cold, but at those speeds you get bars, no matter the conditions. So yes, someone at Ford said, at 73 mph we are going to limit power.



No, it's not. There is a 5 second limit. It's been confirmed, directly from Ford. Sure it's probably an algorithm based on a number of factors because different levels of acceleration have different results, but it's a limit given optimal conditions. It's always assumed to be a 0-(whatever you can get to) full throttle event. When we talk about the 5 second limit, no one ever assumes this is from 50-100mph. Everyone knows it's from a 0mph start as if you're attempting to do a 1/4 mile trap. That's where this has been tested many, many times, on the track and doing traps. 72/73/80 mph have nothing to do with this. Nothing, zero, zilch. Those are different limits.

If the title of this thread was "The GT has a number of limits" I would agree 100%. Saying that the limit doesn't exist is wrong. It doesn't really matter if you call it something else, we are talking about the limit of a hard acceleration event in optimal conditions where power is limited at 5 seconds. The OP asserts that this happens because we hit 72mph. That is the premise of this thread and that is wrong. The 73mph limit is a different limit entirely. I actually went out at night, made a video to prove this, yet no one wants to comment on that. Facts don't seem to matter.

Be more than happy to go make another video showing that:

72 = no bars
73 = 2 bars
back to 72 = no bars
back to 73 = 2 bars



Unless you have a recirc pump, the water in the hot water pipes is just as cold as that on the cold water side if it's not being used. Yes, non-moving water will freeze before moving water, but conditions being the same, both pipes would freeze at the same time. If people think hot water freezes faster then they are just not well informed about how plumbing systems work. Likewise it takes longer for larger pipes to freeze vs smaller pipes because of volume.

Actually, I think we agree more than disagree and it is merely semantics.

Once again, YES it does engage at 72 mph (no videos needed) ? . I never said otherwise. The "determiner" in which I have stated all along was not the speed per se but rather the premature failure of said parts if the limits were not set. The limits were predetermined not on speed but rather heat.

The semantics is that Ford set limits on heat which happened to be at around 72 mph. Yes, the speed is 72 but the limit was not established from that point. Like in the water example, heat will slow the rate of which pipes freeze but at the end of the day we are talking about pressure and not heat with the water pipes. Both hot and cold water lines are most likely the exact same temp at point of failure but it was the release of pressure from the cold line that bought it more time. Btw, water in the cold line does not need to travel (flow) and it will still not burst the pipe. It is the pressure and not the flow to put a fine point on it (more times than not it does flow though). ?

 

[buzznwood]

The above statement about limits is incorrect. If you don't have a GT so you can't see this, but I'm telling you that no matter what conditions you drive the car in, if you drive like grandma, drive in zero degree or 100 degree conditions 73mph triggers bars. It's 100% based on the fact that you hit 73mph. When you hit 80, you get a couple more. No matter the conditions. The battery could be ice cold, but at those speeds you get bars, no matter the conditions. So yes, someone at Ford said, at 73 mph we are going to limit power.

I think this is the thing that most no GT/GTPE owners don't get and why if it was an actual true 5 second limit at all times, while still not what you expect from a performance trim it would at least be easier to live with.

It is the arbitrary higher speed power reduction that is the most infuriating and I would say down right dangerous as you can't even trust the jail bars. I have had situations passing a slow moving semi where it has decided to half my power mid way through and give me the lock out cool down timer once I have crawled past and lifted off, while at other times it stuck to only giving me a few jail bars so no issue as I haven't need to use full power to get past.

In each instanace there had been no real difference in state of charge of weather conditons. Had I been driving at warp speed upon reaching the back of semi then it would be understanable, but not when you have been driving at missy daisy pace.

It means you end up having to treat any higher speed maneuver based around a vehicle that will at any moment will get a random amount of power reduction which is unaccpetable IMO.

 

[Mach1E]

Not to add any fuel to the discussion but if you do not have devices measuring heat then it becomes time versus operation. So time is part of the algorithm reducing power. I am not saying there is a hard 5 second limit as I have no idea but time is certainly one of the major factors. If there was more instrumentation in the HVBJB and battery pack Ford could probably more easily expand the power curve. Without this instrumentation they basically have to test and model results. It seems like Ford is going to open things up a bit next year with the Rally model but I have no idea what physical changes will also be included.

For sure time is a factor.

Ford engineers have told us such and we can see it in real world applications.

It’s a discharge rate over time. The more you discharge in a shorter time period, the more power reduction (as seen in grey bars) you get.

But in my opinion, that reduction is a complex formula or chart, not just a 5 second timer. So I don’t like it being called such because it’s waaaaaay too simplistic of a view of what’s really happening.

We do know the rally has a larger rear motor. But not sure what else. The motors weren’t really a weak link for us anyways.

 

[Mach1E]

The argument from the OP is that 72mph is the point of the limit, that's what myself and others are arguing. 72mph is one limit, it's not the limit as a result of a hard acceleration event from 0mph. It's in addition to.

I don't think anyone is trying to guess as to why it's limiting. Could be heat, could be some battery pack chemistry wizardry. It doesn't really matter why.

I agree that 72 mph is definitely only part of the equation and discharge over time is what’s going on when you floor it (another layer of the limit).

The difference is that 72 mph is a hard fact unmoving line.

Discharge over time? Totally variable. So calling it “5 seconds,” isn’t really accurate.

 

[Mach1E]

I think this is the thing that most no GT/GTPE owners don't get and why if it was an actual true 5 second limit at all times, while still not what you expect from a performance trim it would at least be easier to live with.

It is the arbitrary higher speed power reduction that is the most infuriating and I would say down right dangerous as you can't even trust the jail bars. I have had situations passing a slow moving semi where it has decided to half my power mid way through and give me the lock out cool down timer once I have crawled past and lifted off, while at other times it stuck to only giving me a few jail bars so no issue as I haven't need to use full power to get past.

In each instanace there had been no real difference in state of charge of weather conditons. Had I been driving at warp speed upon reaching the back of semi then it would be understanable, but not when you have been driving at missy daisy pace.

It means you end up having to treat any higher speed maneuver based around a vehicle that will at any moment will get a random amount of power reduction which is unaccpetable IMO.

Agreed for sure.

I mentioned this a few posts back but it applies to what you said:

With a discharge over time limit, the speed limiter is arbitrary and completely pointless. I hope they get rid of that one altogether with the update.

I don’t even understand the speed limit one in the first place. Since we are a 1 speed vehicle, they’re basically just reducing power, all the time, at specific RPM.

Just plain dumb.

 

[Mach1E]

I actually read the opening post which is more insightful than a title. But, If we go based on just the title then it's wrong. There is a 5 second limit, if conditions are correct from a hard acceleration starting at 0mph. The "why" doesn't matter. The OP isn't arguing why it happens, he's saying it doesn't happen. You claim it's heat, but in reality that just a guess, probably correct, but just a guess.

73 mph is where we get a set of bars under ANY condition. Why we get those, who cares, we get them nonetheless. At 80mph we get more. Those are 100% speed determined limits. They happen every time. What the underlying factor is behind those limits, only Ford knows and they haven't told us, so I'm not going to assume.

5 seconds of full acceleration in optimal conditions leads to bars in addition to those speed determined limited bars.

So, once again, yes there are speed determinate bars and there are also bars that appear due to the result of hard acceleration from 0mph under the right conditions (5 seconds into the event) as has been documented by many, many, many, publications, forum members, track reports and as has been confirmed by Ford to the media and published on their website (since removed). I even show this in a video on page 3, but yet here we are ... still.

I’m not saying that “power isn’t limited after 5 seconds of full throttle!”

Because it is.

What I’m saying is that it’s not a “5 second limit,” because time in this case is variable and “5 seconds” isn’t really accurate.

Yeah, it’s semantics.

To put it another way- bridges have a weight limit. Let’s say 20,000 lbs.

Imagine you drove a 50,000 truck on it, and after 10 seconds it collapsed.

Would you call it a “10 second limit” on the bridge? Of course not, because weight is the problem (and limiting factor), not time…… even though it’s still accurate to say the bridge collapsed in 10 seconds, it’s not really telling you what’s happening that’s important.

 

[DevSecOps]

I’m not saying that “power isn’t limited after 5 seconds of full throttle!”

Because it is.

What I’m saying is that it’s not a “5 second limit,” because time in this case is variable and “5 seconds” isn’t really accurate.

Ok well that's not what you said in the OP:

There is no timer. The limit has never been 5 seconds.

The limit is SPEED limited, not time limited. And the speed limit? 72 mph.

You quite clearly said that it was 72mph and not 5 seconds.

If we've made progress and now think differently about things that's great, but there's a disconnect here. As for a timer, no one here knows if it's a timer, heat, rpms or what the hell it is, but it happens at 5 seconds. So while I can't say "there's 100% a timer". There is 100% 5 seconds under the right conditions. What causes the bars at 5 seconds, I don't know and frankly, no one here does, unless they work for Ford.

The only conditions that it's not 5 seconds is:
Starting from anything other than 0
Starting with bars from other triggers

That's not some exhaustive list. It's very easy to replicate the 5 second rule.

 

[Mach1E]

Ok well that's not what you said in the OP:



You quite clearly said that it was 72mph and not 5 seconds.

If we've made progress and now think differently about things that's great, but there's a disconnect here. As for a timer, no one here knows if it's a timer, heat, rpms or what the hell it is, but it happens at 5 seconds. So while I can't say "there's 100% a timer". There is 100% 5 seconds under the right conditions. What causes the bars at 5 seconds, I don't know and frankly, no one here does, unless they work for Ford.

In the OP, I was just starting the conversation. I’ve know for a very long time that there are many layers to the limit (posted about that many times in the past).

When I said “the limit is 72 mph and not 5 seconds,” it’s because 72 is a hard fast unchanging limit. 5 seconds? Totally variable and by definition “not a limit.” And again, it has nothing to do with “5 seconds.”

It’s discharge rate over time and constantly changing. The limiter? Discharge rate over time….. not just time. And discharge rate over time is NOT the same as just time. Kinda like how miles per hour isn’t the same as miles or hours.

Like you showed in your video, you get more than 5 seconds of power before massive grey bars at 3/4 throttle. Even more time would pass at 1/2 throttle.

And at full throttle…… the jail bars start at 72 mph no matter what. Hard limit.

 

[DevSecOps]

In the OP, I was just starting the conversation. I’ve know for a very long time that there are many layers to the limit (posted about that many times in the past).

When I said “the limit is 72 mph and not 5 seconds,” it’s because 72 is a hard fast unchanging limit. 5 seconds? Totally variable and by definition “not a limit.” And again, it has nothing to do with “5 seconds.”

It’s discharge rate over time and constantly changing. The limiter? Discharge rate over time….. not just time. And discharge rate over time is NOT the same as just time. Kinda like how miles per hour isn’t the same as miles or hours.

Like you showed in your video, you get more than 5 seconds of power before massive grey bars at 3/4 throttle. Even more time would pass at 1/2 throttle.

And at full throttle…… the jail bars start at 72 mph no matter what. Hard limit.

Ok, I can't believe I'm continuing down this path.

No shit, if you are grandma and you accelerate at the speed of a snail you will not get limited at 5 seconds. I don't think anyone on planet earth that knows about the 5 seconds would assume that. Watch any 5 second limit video on youtube and it's about full acceleration starting at 0mph with 0 prior bars.

We have always known about the number of other factors that cause limiting, including speed. So, as someone who is a long time forum member, I find it very strange that you are just now talking about 72mph like it's something new.

If the argument here is that accelerating slowly won't limit you at 5 seconds then we can agree. If the argument is a choice of words "5 seconds" vs "discharge rate" that's a little silly to make a thread over. That's like making a thread saying "1PD never existed" because it's really "regenerative braking" and there's times when you have to use the other pedal. We can't quantify discharge rate, we don't even know what that is, you've made it up. We can quantify time, which is what everyone who has ever talked about this has done.

Again, your full throttle example is irrelevant, completely irrelevant. The bars at 73 mph are regardless of acceleration.

 

[Mach1E]

Ok, I can't believe I'm continuing down this path.

No shit, if you are grandma and you accelerate at the speed of a snail you will not get limited at 5 seconds. I don't think anyone on planet earth that knows about the 5 seconds would assume that. Watch any 5 second limit video on youtube and it's about full acceleration starting at 0mph with 0 prior bars.

We have always known about the number of other factors that cause limiting, including speed. So, as someone who is a long time forum member, I find it very strange that you are just now talking about 72mph like it's something new.

If the argument here is that accelerating slowly won't limit you at 5 seconds then we can agree. If the argument is a choice of words "5 seconds" vs "discharge rate" that's a little silly to make a thread over. That's like making a thread saying "1PD never existed" because it's really "regenerative braking" and there's times when you have to use the other pedal. We can't quantify discharge rate, we don't even know what that is, you've made it up. We can quantify time, which is what everyone who has ever talked about this has done.

Again, your full throttle example is irrelevant, completely irrelevant. The bars at 73 mph are regardless of acceleration.

You may think it’s silly and that “everyone knows” that when you say “5 seconds” that we really mean “all this other stuff.”

But I don’t think that “everyone knows” about all the other stuff and I think the silly thing is that we have given the power reduction the label of “5 seconds,” when we really mean all this stuff.

No, it’s not like a thread about 1PD because that’s an official name.

So it begs the question, what should we call all these power limiters if not “5 sec limit?”

I would argue “grey bars” works well for a catch all. But I still think it’s important to define what those grey bars are indicative of. 72 mph, state of charge, cold temps, discharge rate over time.

And yeah, of all the grey bar limiters……. 72 mph seems to be the only one that’s a firm limit we somewhat understand.

But even the 72 mph……. Everyone doesn’t know about. Even people on THIS thread have had confusion and learned about it.

 

[DevSecOps]

So it begs the question, what should we call all these power limiters if not “5 sec limit?”

I think the problem here is that you assume that everyone thinks a grey bar is due to 5 seconds. I would strongly disagree. I don't think people think that at all. I don't think anyone thinks that at 73 mph they get bars because of 5 seconds.

I honestly think that everyone knows that grey bars = power limitations.

I agree that new owners won't know why they have them all the time. This winter I'm sure we'll see a bunch of threads about grey bars due to climate. Associating grey bars with 5 second is appropriate when you get the grey bars from a hard acceleration event, starting at 0mph with 0 previous grey bars. No other limitation of power should be associated to the 5 second rule, including speed limited grey bars.

As for 1PD, it doesn't matter if the name is official or not, c'mon. It's the same premise. It's like arguing that it shouldn't be called 1PD, because sometimes you have to use 2. This is the exact same thing.

It's also like saying that 0-60 isn't 3.5 seconds because if you are in the cold and have 4 grey bars it's 6.5 seconds. Those are silly arguments. We can change the conditions of anything to make it fit our narrative, but that's just trolling.

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