The GT never had a 5 second limit

[Mach1E]

I think the problem here is that you assume that everyone thinks a grey bar is due to 5 seconds. I would strongly disagree. I don't think people think that at all. I don't think anyone thinks that at 73 mph they get bars because of 5 seconds.

I honestly think that everyone knows that grey bars = power limitations.

I agree that new owners won't know why they have them all the time. This winter I'm sure we'll see a bunch of threads about grey bars due to climate. Associating grey bars with 5 second is appropriate when you get the grey bars from a hard acceleration event, starting at 0mph with 0 previous grey bars. No other limitation of power should be associated to the 5 second rule, including speed limited grey bars.

As for 1PD, it doesn't matter if the name is official or not, c'mon. It's the same premise. It's like arguing that it shouldn't be called 1PD, because sometimes you have to use 2. This is the exact same thing.

It's also like saying that 0-60 isn't 3.5 seconds because if you are in the cold and have 4 grey bars it's 6.5 seconds. Those are silly arguments. We can change the conditions of anything to make it fit our narrative, but that's just trolling.

That’s the thing, it’s not just new owners, tons of people are confused about the power limits and when we post threads like “when will the 5 sec limit go away,” we are just adding to the confusion.

Look at all the RECENT 5 second limit threads-

All the discussions are around “will it be 10 seconds or 8 seconds,” etc.

No one is talking about the 72 mph speed limit, the size of the cliff when power is limited, cold weather or low charge limits, etc.

If “everyone” understood it, shouldn’t those other important factors at least come up?

I dont think it’s “everyone” nor do I think it’s “no one” that understands. I think there are a large number of owners in both camps.

But when we focus only on “5 seconds,” we risk asking Ford to fix the wrong thing.

For example- I would be fine with them keeping all the limiting criteria the same……. But make the drop off only 50 hp so we still have 430 hp when any limiter kicks in.

A very different argument/ask, but would make us just like Kia, Hyundai and Porsche how they do their limiters.

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[AKgrampy]

That’s the thing, it’s not just new owners, tons of people are confused about the power limits and when we post threads like “when will the 5 sec limit go away,” we are just adding to the confusion.

Look at all the RECENT 5 second limit threads-

All the discussions are around “will it be 10 seconds or 8 seconds,” etc.

No one is talking about the 72 mph speed limit, the size of the cliff when power is limited, cold weather or low charge limits, etc.

If “everyone” understood it, shouldn’t those other important factors at least come up?

I dont think it’s “everyone” nor do I think it’s “no one” that understands. I think there are a large number of owners in both camps.

But when we focus only on “5 seconds,” we risk asking Ford to fix the wrong thing.

For example- I would be fine with them keeping all the limiting criteria the same……. But make the drop off only 50 hp so we still have 430 hp when any limiter kicks in.

A very different argument/ask, but would make us just like Kia, Hyundai and Porsche how they do their limiters.

I do think in general that most people, and I could be wrong, think in terms of WOT and see where the power drops off. Right now that is right at 5 seconds. What will it be with the Rally? Sure there will also be the power when passing and how many bars at what speed and what temp and what SOC but I do think most people will hit the highway or drag strip, go WOT, and see where they lose power and that will be measured in seconds. Just the reality of the situation. Then there will be the 6.7 second rule!

 

[DennisD]

That’s the thing, it’s not just new owners, tons of people are confused about the power limits and when we post threads like “when will the 5 sec limit go away,” we are just adding to the confusion.

Look at all the RECENT 5 second limit threads-

All the discussions are around “will it be 10 seconds or 8 seconds,” etc.

No one is talking about the 72 mph speed limit, the size of the cliff when power is limited, cold weather or low charge limits, etc.

If “everyone” understood it, shouldn’t those other important factors at least come up?

I dont think it’s “everyone” nor do I think it’s “no one” that understands. I think there are a large number of owners in both camps.

But when we focus only on “5 seconds,” we risk asking Ford to fix the wrong thing.

For example- I would be fine with them keeping all the limiting criteria the same……. But make the drop off only 50 hp so we still have 430 hp when any limiter kicks in.

A very different argument/ask, but would make us just like Kia, Hyundai and Porsche how they do their limiters.

When I sleep on things, I usually think clearer.

With that being said, I have concluded that there is no such thing as a 5 Second Limiter. It is a heat limiter.

Because of variables, when the limit kicks in i.e. engages the limit of heat is instant therefore, a heat or friction limiter if you will.

The reason I have concluded this is because if it truly limited the speed it would start to slow down. Imagine this, if I were going down a long hill and hammered it, it would disengage at 72 but still be traveling OVER 72. The same can be said with the time as well. The 5 second rule depends on other factors such as the temperature and other conditions that may be extending or limiting it slightly beyond the 5 seconds.

We have now concluded this thread.

 

[Mach1E]

When I sleep on things, I usually think clearer.

With that being said, I have concluded that there is no such thing as a 5 Second Limiter. It is a heat limiter.

Because of variables, when the limit kicks in i.e. engages the limit of heat is instant therefore, a heat or friction limiter if you will.

The reason I have concluded this is because if it truly limited the speed it would start to slow down. Imagine this, if I were going down a long hill and hammered it, it would disengage at 72 but still be traveling OVER 72. The same can be said with the time as well. The 5 second rule depends on other factors such as the temperature and other conditions that may be extending or limiting it slightly beyond the 5 seconds.

We have now concluded this thread.

Just when I thought the semantics couldn’t get more semanticsy. ?

5 sec limit- when?
72 mph limit- what?
Heat limit- why?
Power limit- how?
Farley limit- who?

 

[DennisD]

Just when I thought the semantics couldn’t get more semanticsy. ?

5 sec limit- when?
72 mph limit- what?
Heat limit- why?
Power limit- how?
Farley limit- who?

The main thrust of a limit was imposed on heat generation of particular parts. (educated guess on that one) With that being said, I can almost say with certainty that the engineers did not care about the time or speed but the temperature of failure.

That has been my main point or contention all along. There wasn't a limit set due to speed or time but rather heat generation, thus no 5 second limit.

So in conclusion, the limit was only used for heat. Once again, if it were speed they would have used regenerative braking once it got to 72 and the time would have been more precise if looking at 5 seconds.

The limit of engagement just happens to be at 72 and/or 5 seconds. It was not set to engage at those limits but rather is happening at those.

Try this, rub your hands back and forth real fast for 5 seconds. They will get real hot. It is not the time that is concerning you but rather the heat. Also, the speed of rubbing your hands don't concern you as much as the heat as well. But..................if you rub your hands in water the speed goes out the window (just like going down hill with the car past 72). The only concern you have is blistering. The only concern Ford has is the "blistering" of parts. They don't care the time or speed but the failure rate of warranted parts.

Hopefully that helps. ?

 

[AKgrampy]

When I sleep on things, I usually think clearer.

With that being said, I have concluded that there is no such thing as a 5 Second Limiter. It is a heat limiter.

Because of variables, when the limit kicks in i.e. engages the limit of heat is instant therefore, a heat or friction limiter if you will.

The reason I have concluded this is because if it truly limited the speed it would start to slow down. Imagine this, if I were going down a long hill and hammered it, it would disengage at 72 but still be traveling OVER 72. The same can be said with the time as well. The 5 second rule depends on other factors such as the temperature and other conditions that may be extending or limiting it slightly beyond the 5 seconds.

We have now concluded this thread.

That would probably be correct except for, as I understand thing, the non existent temperature sensing in the HVBJB. So protection to some extent is calculated based on theory and testing.

 

[DennisD]

That would probably be correct except for, as I understand thing, the non existent temperature sensing in the HVBJB. So protection to some extent is calculated based on theory and testing.

Yes, they ( I am quite sure ) tested the HVBJB and determined the heat applied to it under heavy load would cause it some stress thus in turn they chose to "limit" the heat source applied to it. Unfortunately, the fail rate is still too high IMO.

To my understanding, heat is the culprit of almost all things to fail at some point. It is not a matter of if but rather when. The limits are used to get more life into it.

 

[DevSecOps]

That’s the thing, it’s not just new owners, tons of people are confused about the power limits and when we post threads like “when will the 5 sec limit go away,” we are just adding to the confusion.

Look at all the RECENT 5 second limit threads-

All the discussions are around “will it be 10 seconds or 8 seconds,” etc.

No one is talking about the 72 mph speed limit, the size of the cliff when power is limited, cold weather or low charge limits, etc.

If “everyone” understood it, shouldn’t those other important factors at least come up?

I dont think it’s “everyone” nor do I think it’s “no one” that understands. I think there are a large number of owners in both camps.

But when we focus only on “5 seconds,” we risk asking Ford to fix the wrong thing.

For example- I would be fine with them keeping all the limiting criteria the same……. But make the drop off only 50 hp so we still have 430 hp when any limiter kicks in.

A very different argument/ask, but would make us just like Kia, Hyundai and Porsche how they do their limiters.

I am completely on board with educating people. Therefore I have created a post to do this. I'll continue to expand on the reasons and points at which bars are accumulated. I'm not going to entertain wild ideas. It's going to be fact based on information from Ford and proven quantifiable metrics.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mache-gt-gtpe-performance-limiters-explained.31200/

 

[AKgrampy]

Yes, they ( I am quite sure ) tested the HVBJB and determined the heat applied to it under heavy load would cause it some stress thus in turn they chose to "limit" the heat source applied to it. Unfortunately, the fail rate is still too high IMO.

To my understanding, heat is the culprit of almost all things to fail at some point. It is not a matter of if but rather when. The limits are used to get more life into it.

It is all about heat damaging components. The issue, I believe, is Ford did not install sufficient monitoring (and cooling) to protect the components from overheating. Therefore they had to develop algorithms to synthesize protection. The whole discussion of this thread surrounds whether the “5 second” rule is among the various protection algorithms.

 

[DennisD]

I am completely on board with educating people. Therefore I have created a post to do this. I'll continue to expand on the reasons and points at which bars are accumulated. I'm not going to entertain wild ideas. It's going to be fact based on information from Ford and proven quantifiable metrics.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mache-gt-gtpe-performance-limiters-explained.31200/

I don't think anyone is debating your points? Yes, the limit happens or engages if you will at 5 seconds but that is not what Ford is limiting ultimately. Time is a reference point and the "limit" is there to not cause harm.

It is semantics and that is all it is. This thread has painfully been going in circles with most if not all of us agreeing on things at the end of the day. It comes down to the interpretation of what "limits" is as we interpret them.

Once again, time is not what they ultimately are limiting but rather the effect of something going on during that time at hand. The "thing" we don't know is what exactly is happening during that time of hard acceleration.

You can post as much information as you like but what is really needed is an Engineer from Ford to prove the reason for said "limit".

My guess is that an Engineer will not take the time (nor should I for that matter) to digest this large thread and try to explain it.

It has been fun though.

 

[Mach1E]

I am completely on board with educating people. Therefore I have created a post to do this. I'll continue to expand on the reasons and points at which bars are accumulated. I'm not going to entertain wild ideas. It's going to be fact based on information from Ford and proven quantifiable metrics.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mache-gt-gtpe-performance-limiters-explained.31200/

I think that’s a good thread! Except maybe the commentary about people who claim to completely know how the limiters work, not sure I’ve met any of those people because I definitely don’t. I’ve said multiple times we are all speculating here outside of the few known factors like speed.

 

[DevSecOps]

Except maybe the commentary about people who claim to completely know how the limiters work, not sure I’ve met any of those people because I definitely don’t.

This thread is full of assertions as to the underlying reason for performance limitation. I've said before that they could be correct, but Ford hasn't confirmed anything. While it would be educational to know, directly from Ford - rather than a guess, it really doesn't matter the underlying reason why. The limitation of power is something we directly can relate to due to loss of power, grey bars we can relate to because we see them, we can't relate to the underlying reason.

The argument that it's not 5 seconds because it's really heat, as an example, is a guess and goes against what Ford has published on their website. Why would Ford publish 5 seconds, because it's 5 seconds. Why did Ford do a limit of 5 seconds, well we just don't know, except that they said it was to preserve battery health (which is still not an underlying reason imo).

So my point here is that we know the conditions that trigger the rule, we don't know the reasons that trigger the rule. The conditions are what we feel, see and can quantify. Those are really the only things that we can be sure of, the rest is speculation.

That comment wasn't directed at you, so I hope no offense was taken. I've actually made no fewer than 5 additional videos in the last day so I could evaluate your claims because you make me doubt myself. After reviewing them carefully I can see why you think it's 72mph. You can get to 72mph before the 5 second mark so you see bars appearing before the acceleration limited bars. One could easily assume that these bars are the acceleration bars, but they aren't. Ford's website confirming the 5 second power limit also helped justify my thoughts. After reviewing the videos over and over I was able to piece out which bars are for what. Anyone watching me was probably wondering why I'm driving up and down the road like a lunatic, but oh well.

 

[aberry]

A key cycle or maybe time did it. I remote started just before leaving work and got deluged with notifications from the FordPass app, plus no more jail bars. No clue why the car was constipated. ?‍?

I had the same thing happen to me. Only I was on the freeway going about 65 mph when I noticed the same amount of bars show up suddenly. They did not go down when I slowed down but persisted throughout my entire drive. When I arrived home, I did a key cycle but it did not disappear. I charged it like I normally do and the next morning it was gone. I also have no idea what happened, but since then I’ve been afraid that the HVBJB issue is going to happen to me even though my GTPE was built after May ‘22.

 

[DennisD]

I think that’s a good thread! Except maybe the commentary about people who claim to completely know how the limiters work, not sure I’ve met any of those people because I definitely don’t. I’ve said multiple times we are all speculating here outside of the few known factors like speed.

I am assuming you are talking about my previous posts but I just wanted you to please re-read my posts where I have stated many, many times that I was guessing along with stating, "take this with a grain of salt" just like you are suggesting of your posts. I do however feel confident that my guesses are accurate but when it comes right down to it, no one knows for sure on this thread and that is why I stated we need the Engineers that designed the limiter to tell us.

Now a little background. I used to Instruct Automotive Courses along with Small Engine Classes. While I realize that ICE and EV's differ in many ways, they are also the same when it comes to how parts fail many times.

Take batteries for example. The heat is what ruins the battery and not the cold weather like many people think. Computers are also prone to degrade at a faster rate if operating at high temps. That is why rooms that contain computers are many times quite cold. I would assume EV's fall into that camp.

Ironically, if we made the life of an ICE run longer by taking the heat away it would also run much more inefficiently. You need heat at the same time you are trying to take heat away similar to EV's. The efficiency goes down in the cold and goes up in the Summer but it is harder on the battery in warmer climates. Damn if you do, damn if you don't type thing.

So with all of the background of knowing how many parts fail due to heat, I am assuming the same must be true for this limiter on a GT. I am 99% sure on this but there may be an outlier that suggests differently. ? Why Ford would care about time or speed is beyond me but the name "5 second limiter" is just code for, don't overheat me or I will not last as long as you would like. That is why I think it should be stated as a heat limiter and not a time limiter. It limits heat and time is just used to simplify it to a round equation.

In any event, if I am coming across as being arrogant I apologize. I am just pointing out the things I would guess are happening and trying to see if anyone has any differing views and I am finding out that everybody doesn't know but seems to be agreeing with each other yet still debating. Now try to figure that one out.

 

[Mach1E]

I am assuming you are talking about my previous posts but I just wanted you to please re-read my posts where I have stated many, many times that I was guessing along with stating, "take this with a grain of salt" just like you are suggesting of your posts. I do however feel confident that my guesses are accurate but when it comes right down to it, no one knows for sure on this thread and that is why I stated we need the Engineers that designed the limiter to tell us.

Now a little background. I used to Instruct Automotive Courses along with Small Engine Classes. While I realize that ICE and EV's differ in many ways, they are also the same when it comes to how parts fail many times.

Take batteries for example. The heat is what ruins the battery and not the cold weather like many people think. Computers are also prone to degrade at a faster rate if operating at high temps. That is why rooms that contain computers are many times quite cold. I would assume EV's fall into that camp.

Ironically, if we made the life of an ICE run longer by taking the heat away it would also run much more inefficiently. You need heat at the same time you are trying to take heat away similar to EV's. The efficiency goes down in the cold and goes up in the Summer but it is harder on the battery in warmer climates. Damn if you do, damn if you don't type thing.

So with all of the background of knowing how many parts fail due to heat, I am assuming the same must be true for this limiter on a GT. I am 99% sure on this but there may be an outlier that suggests differently. ? Why Ford would care about time or speed is beyond me but the name "5 second limiter" is just code for, don't overheat me or I will not last as long as you would like. That is why I think it should be stated as a heat limiter and not a time limiter. It limits heat and time is just used to simplify it to a round equation.

In any event, if I am coming across as being arrogant I apologize. I am just pointing out the things I would guess are happening and trying to see if anyone has any differing views and I am finding out that everybody doesn't know but seems to be agreeing with each other yet still debating. Now try to figure that one out.

No. You are completely misreading my post.

I was referring to the new thread @DevSecOps created where he referred to people to claim to know for sure.

I’m saying I don’t know who he could be referring to because I don’t think anyone has claimed that.

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