The Truth About Electric Cars Biggest Problem

ChasingCoral

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New update on this old discussion:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-previously-suggested-study-highlights-errors

Lifetime carbon emissions for EVs is much lower than previously suggested: Study highlights errors
avatar-image-for-stephed_100440631_s.jpg

STEPHEN EDELSTEIN SEPTEMBER 3, 2020


Lifetime carbon emissions of electric cars are much lower than previously suggested, according to a new study from the Eindhoven University of Technology.

First reported by Der Spiegel, the study also takes aim at previous studies claiming electric cars have higher overall emissions than internal-combustion vehicles.

Factoring in emissions from both manufacturing and driving, the study found that in Europe, carbon-dioxide emissions for a Volkswagen e-Golf were 54% lower than even a Toyota Prius—among the most fuel-efficient cars with an internal-combustion engine.

Similarly, the study found that lifetime emissions from a Tesla Model 3 were 65% lower than emissions of a diesel Mercedes-Benz C220d. While not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, the study also found that a Porsche Taycan S sedan produced 82% lower emissions than a Bugatti Veyron supercar.

These results are based on the current electricity-generating mix of fossil fuels or renewable energy. Emissions could be lowered even further if electric cars were charged exclusively with renewable energy, the study found.

"If we speculate about a future in which production and driving are done on renewable energy this results in at least ten times less emissions than what is achievable with combustion engines using fossil fuels," the study's summary said.

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2019 Volkswagen e-Golf

Assuming that EVs won't get cleaner over their lifetimes as more renewable-energy generating capacity is one of the six "biggest mistakes" in studies that find EVs to have similar greenhouse gas emissions to gasoline and diesel cars, researchers said.

Other studies also exaggerate the emissions of battery production, or downplay emissions of fossil fuel production, according to this study. Other "mistakes" highlighted include underestimating battery lifespan, using manufacturer-backed laboratory emissions tests, and ignoring the limited space for efficiency improvements in internal-combustion technology.

Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) data has underscored that EVs are cleaner than the vast majority of gasoline vehicles right now, assuming the current electrical grid and including the additional carbon impact of manufacturing. Considering the electrical grid will become cleaner, EVs will have a far lower lifecycle footprint.

There have been many studies attempting to refute this, but they haven't been based on assumptions that reflect the real world.

While there are few places in the world in which electricity generation is dirtier than gasoline emissions, these are outliers. A recent study found that electric cars are already cleaner than gasoline cars in 95% of the world.

For those who want to look deeper into carbon impact, there are also tangents related to land use and human activity to consider.
 

Woeo

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Why would you say that? Nobody knows what the range is based off of, only that the base model will do "at least 300 miles". The tri-motor version will do "at least 500 miles." Someone managed to get a picture of the Cybertruck display from outside while Elon was driving it; it showed 620 miles remaining on the range indicator. I would guess--and this is just a guess--that I'd get about 250 miles of range towing my 24' boat.
https://tenor.com/view/holding-back-laughter-laugh-lol-cover-mouth-secretly-laughing-gif-14454882
 

MerryBrown

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Yes, he does definitely make some great points and I don't think ICE are going away in my lifetime. However, his point about the huge difference in battery size/weight vs an ICE gas tank doesn't tell the whole story. The electric motors in a BEV are much smaller and lighter compared to the drivetrain of an ice, so the larger battery isn't as bad as he implies. ICE vehicles are still lighter for comparable performance, but being able to make the floor out of batteries is a nice solution to the bigger size.
Also as I have been told my whole life, size doesn't matter, it's performance!
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Also as I have been told my whole life, size doesn't matter, it's performance!
it's not the size of the rock, it's how hard you throw it at the "shatterproof" windows.
 


Billyk24

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timbop

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What was not addressed was the payback time frame. The EV cost more upfront. Saving 600+ dollars a year on "fuel" takes how long to payback the upfront difference of the Model 3 (45K?) verse the Honda Accord (29K?).
The cost you are missing is not the owner's out of pocket expense, but the cost of: stronger and more frequent storms, droughts, loss of ocean habitats, once arable farmland becoming fallow, climate refugees, and of course loss of of habitable areas due to unbearable temperatures and rising ocean levels.

I think our great grandkids will appreciate us paying the extra $10k now.
 

Billyk24

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The cost you are missing is not the owner's out of pocket expense, but the cost of: stronger and more frequent storms, droughts, loss of ocean habitats, once arable farmland becoming fallow, climate refugees, and of course loss of of habitable areas due to unbearable temperatures and rising ocean levels.

I think our great grandkids will appreciate us paying the extra $10k now.
When are the Chinese going to be held accountable for such damage: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ive-coal-expansion-in-threat-to-climate-goals
China Set for Massive Coal Expansion in Threat to Climate Goals
 

timbop

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Badger_Prof

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We have decreased our emission, the other guys have significantly increased them
What is the level of EV production and share of total market in China v. US?
 

timbop

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We have decreased our emission, the other guys have significantly increased them
While it is technically true that due to covid19 restrictions our CO2 emissions have gone down, that is a temporary condition. When things resume, we will have no actual targets because we are pulling out of the Paris agreement. You should also more closely follow the goings-on at the EPA, department of the interior, and other executive branch actions.

For example:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/climate/trump-environment-rollbacks.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...d8df3e-ebd2-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...205c80-ee60-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html
https://suwa.org/amid-pandemic-inte...ing-plan-on-public-lands-near-national-parks/
 

c max

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The cost you are missing is not the owner's out of pocket expense, but the cost of: stronger and more frequent storms, droughts, loss of ocean habitats, once arable farmland becoming fallow, climate refugees, and of course loss of of habitable areas due to unbearable temperatures and rising ocean levels.

I think our great grandkids will appreciate us paying the extra $10k now.
Well said!!!!!......I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!......as a retired science teacher, I just can't believe when people ignore the science and more important the facts.....
 

Billyk24

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technically true that due to covid19 restrictions our CO2 emissions have gone down ----There was a decrease in 2019, which dates well before the COV-19 issue. The USA actually leads the world in reducing CO2 emissions since 2005 with China upping their by 50% and India by 88% in that time frame.
 

ChasingCoral

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When are the Chinese going to be held accountable for such damage: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ive-coal-expansion-in-threat-to-climate-goals
China Set for Massive Coal Expansion in Threat to Climate Goals
We cannot control the actions of others but we can control our own. The American people were sold yet one more pig in a poke. We were told we needed to expand oil production and be allowed to sell it overseas to eliminate fossil fuel dependence on other countries. We're now the world's third largest exporter of gas and sixth largest exporter of oil. That was all about profits for a few.

Don't forget to balance your headline with this one:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/08/how-china-is-leading-the-renewable-energy-revolution

and the fact that in 2019, not only was China the largest producer of renewable energy, they produced as much as the next 5 countries combined.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/267233/renewable-energy-capacity-worldwide-by-country/
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