silverelan

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I think there is a lot of alignment between Ford and Volkswagen. As chummy as these two companies are as well as the integration we're seeing between the FordPass app and the plug & charge (ISO 15118) capability of both the MME and EA, I gotta think that they're going to have pricing that's as good or better than the Kona/Niro prices.

With that crazy stripped down MME doing burnouts at the track and the speculation on the cooling (so many fans!), it's got me wondering again on charging speed.
 

timbop

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One could argue that DC fast charging is a service more than a commodity. I suppose it's akin to cooking at home versus eating at a restaurant. There's just a lot more overhead that has to be bundled into the price.

I'm not convinced that Electrify America's per minute charging is relevant anymore since we already know that EA has committed to a per kilowatt hour price scheme where legal and Ford's complimentary 250kWh upon purchase.

The economics of DC fast charging by itself just does not make much sense (but commercial partnerships may pencil out). High-powered charging infrastructure probably has to be subsidized to some extent by manufacturers as Tesla does with its Superchargers or Ionity by Ford, Volkswagen, Kia/Hyundai, etc.
100% agree
 

ajmartineau

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I wonder how the cost of installing three underground gasoline/diesel tanks and eight pumps compares to that of 8 DCFC’s that are 150-350kW?
 

dbsb3233

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I wonder how the cost of installing three underground gasoline/diesel tanks and eight pumps compares to that of 8 DCFC’s that are 150-350kW?
Likely more in absolute dollars, but of course gas stations see WAY more volume of sales. ICE vehicles are like 98% of the vehicles on the road (in the US), and take just 2-4 minutes to refuel. A gas station can handle around 15 refuels per hour from each pump. And virtually all ICE vehicles get refueled at gas stations (no home fueling).

Compare that to a charging station that can handle maybe 2-3 refuels per hour. And relies on a customer base of only 2% of all vehicles on the road. And the vast majority of them refuel at home 95% of the time.
 

JamieGeek

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Likely more in absolute dollars, but of course gas stations see WAY more volume of sales. ICE vehicles are like 98% of the vehicles on the road (in the US), and take just 2-4 minutes to refuel. A gas station can handle around 15 refuels per hour from each pump. And virtually all ICE vehicles get refueled at gas stations (no home fueling).

Compare that to a charging station that can handle maybe 2-3 refuels per hour. And relies on a customer base of only 2% of all vehicles on the road. And the vast majority of them refuel at home 95% of the time.
Right but on the plus side: A DCFC is a relatively "set it and forget it" item. Once installed, as long as it doesn't break or get vandalized, they can just leave it alone and it will operate. Level-2's are similar: I've seen many installed at malls and such that they just put them there and, basically, forget about them.

Pumps, on the other hand, need maintenance, a truck to fill the tanks, calibration, etc.
 

jhalkias

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Right but on the plus side: A DCFC is a relatively "set it and forget it" item. Once installed, as long as it doesn't break or get vandalized, they can just leave it alone and it will operate. Level-2's are similar: I've seen many installed at malls and such that they just put them there and, basically, forget about them.

Pumps, on the other hand, need maintenance, a truck to fill the tanks, calibration, etc.
I pretty much agree, but watching YouTube videos of EV road trips I saw an awful lot of DCFC not operating and needing service. Probably mostly related to the software that runs them. And a lot of those were EA chargers. Watch Kyle’s Kona road trip on the Out of Spec Motoring YouTube channel.
 

JamieGeek

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I pretty much agree, but watching YouTube videos of EV road trips I saw an awful lot of DCFC not operating and needing service. Probably mostly related to the software that runs them. And a lot of those were EA chargers. Watch Kyle’s Kona road trip on the Out of Spec Motoring YouTube channel.
Yeah I have far more experience with the odd non-networked Level-2 EVSE in front of a business. (My Focus Electric was an early one--2013--which didn't have DCFC as an option.)

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ClaudeMach-E

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I would like to comment on EA/EC pricing here has many people here worries about it. I am adding a video from EV Man (about Ionity pricing) on this post and I kind of agree with him. Basically Ionity in EU/UK or EA/EC in US/Canada where originally put in place with VW diesel gate penalty money. Ionity has develop the infrastructure and is getting more and more car manufacturers to join in a kind of partnership with them. The basic reason is that those manufacturers want to compete with Tesla Superchargers network, so by joining in on Ionity or EA/EC they can offer preferential pricing to their customers, I belive Ford who is part of the Ionity group will be part of the EA/EC group also, with Ford Pass at this moment. Tesla SC is priced around $0.25 cents (more or less) in the US, for me here in Quebec for example (price varies from states/provinces) it would cost me $0.82/min on EC at the 125 kw+ level charging ($0.21/min on the lower 75 kw pricing level) but I can go to a Petro Canada charging station offering 100 to 350 kw charging $0.20/min, so I would avoid going to EC stations, so it does not make business sense at these high pricing level. That's why I believe that eventually Ford will offer a special pricing on EA/EC for the MME and there future EV's. I invite you to watch the video and there's also Bjorn Nyland who made a You Tube video on the matter. ;)

 

timbop

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I would like to comment on EA/EC pricing here has many people here worries about it. I am adding a video from EV Man (about Ionity pricing) on this post and I kind of agree with him. Basically Ionity in EU/UK or EA/EC in US/Canada where originally put in place with VW diesel gate penalty money. Ionity has develop the infrastructure and is getting more and more car manufacturers to join in a kind of partnership with them. The basic reason is that those manufacturers want to compete with Tesla Superchargers network, so by joining in on Ionity or EA/EC they can offer preferential pricing to their customers, I belive Ford who is part of the Ionity group will be part of the EA/EC group also, with Ford Pass at this moment. Tesla SC is priced around $0.25 cents (more or less) in the US, for me here in Quebec for example (price varies from states/provinces) it would cost me $0.82/min on EC at the 125 kw+ level charging ($0.21/min on the lower 75 kw pricing level) but I can go to a Petro Canada charging station offering 100 to 350 kw charging $0.20/min, so I would avoid going to EC stations, so it does not make business sense at these high pricing level. That's why I believe that eventually Ford will offer a special pricing on EA/EC for the MME and there future EV's. I invite you to watch the video and there's also Bjorn Nyland who made a You Tube video on the matter. ;)

He makes a lot of sense and appears dead-on for Ionity; I am not sure the same thing is going to happen with EA/EC. Ford and others could negotiate special lower rates, but that is unknown at this time. If not, even the "Pass +" rate is very high, and where the ISP analogy breaks down is that owners don't get a choice of service level. The pricing tier is tied to the hardware specs of the car, and that's it. I as a frugal consumer cannot opt to take a slower charge to save money as I could to take a lower broadband service level (or even a lower grade of gasoline for an ICE analogy).
 

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He makes a lot of sense and appears dead-on for Ionity; I am not sure the same thing is going to happen with EA/EC. Ford and others could negotiate special lower rates, but that is unknown at this time. If not, even the "Pass +" rate is very high, and where the ISP analogy breaks down is that owners don't get a choice of service level. The pricing tier is tied to the hardware specs of the car, and that's it. I as a frugal consumer cannot opt to take a slower charge to save money as I could to take a lower broadband service level (or even a lower grade of gasoline for an ICE analogy).
That is an interesting thought: What if you could from right on the dash or the center display: PIck the level you want to charge at?

The Bolt does have a setting for Level-1: 8amps or 12 amps.

Its all software that runs these things; just put in a setting "Max 60kW DCFC" or whatever--simply just dial it in.
 

ClaudeMach-E

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That is an interesting thought: What if you could from right on the dash or the center display: PIck the level you want to charge at?

The Bolt does have a setting for Level-1: 8amps or 12 amps.

Its all software that runs these things; just put in a setting "Max 60kW DCFC" or whatever--simply just dial it in.
Interesting idea for DCFC :)
 

dbsb3233

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Ford "negotiating a lower rate" at EA would likely mean Ford subsidizing a lower rate. Which I'm not in favor of. That simply means they'd be passing that subsidy on into the purchase price of the Mach-e. (There is no free lunch.)

I'm still guessing the FordPass subscription will simply include existing EA Pass+ pricing.
 

LYTMCQ

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I as a frugal consumer cannot opt to take a slower charge to save money as I could to take a lower broadband service level
You can choose the L2 charger for lower costs if you want. There‘s a Chademo/L2 charger at each of the EA stations.

Price wise, I pay $0.31 per kWh at EA and $0.28-$0.31 per kWh at Tesla. Not a significant price difference.
 



 








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