dbsb3233

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I like road trips. My wife hates them and would rather fly - most of the time she sleeps. That may be because I typically cannonball them with few and quick stops. I will get to find out if that is the issue with the Mach E, as the stops will not be so quick.
That's us too. We used to fly to Vegas all the time, but now we do a lot of looong international flights so now we usually drive to Vegas to mix it up. But we cannonball too. ~12 hours. Fits into all daylight driving which we prefer.

Unfortunately this upcoming Mach-e challenge drive will cost us about $300 extra. (Well actually about $175 for this one by using the free kWh Ford is starting us off with, but any more trips would be about that.) EA looks about $150 more than gas, and 2 hotel nights for another $150. (Our Vegas hotel nights are always free.)
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jhalkias

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That's us too. We used to fly to Vegas all the time, but now we do a lot of looong international flights so now we usually drive to Vegas to mix it up. But we cannonball too. ~12 hours. Fits into all daylight driving which we prefer.

Unfortunately this upcoming Mach-e challenge drive will cost us about $300 extra. (Well actually about $175 for this one by using the free kWh Ford is starting us off with, but any more trips would be about that.) EA looks about $150 more than gas, and 2 hotel nights for another $150. (Our Vegas hotel nights are always free.)
I prefer daylight too. I can never understand how those people who leave in the dead of night stay awake. Night driving is not my favorite.
Do we yet know what our cost is going to be on EA with FordPass? I know you can see what no membership prices are, but I was under the impression that with a FordPass membership, it would be closer to the price of gas.
 

dbsb3233

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I am hoping to take our Mach E on a 500 mile road trip over New Years.
Your 500 mile trip should be a lot more doable than our 785. The first 200 miles or so is basically a freebie. That's using the 100% charge from home that didn't waste any time. The slow refuel factor applies to everything after that. So in effect, you have 300 miles of slow public charging to, while mine is almost twice that.

You can probably do yours with 2 refuel stops (200-150-150), but only IF there are chargers spaced correctly. If they're staggered wrong, it might take 3.

My 785 mile route shows 6 recharges required along the way. Not sure what the opposite of "cannonballing it" is, but that's it. "Grannying it"?
 

dbsb3233

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Do we yet know what our cost is going to be on EA with FordPass? I know you can see what no membership prices are, but I was under the impression that with a FordPass membership, it would be closer to the price of gas.
I don't think it's been explicitly announced, but there was something a few months ago we saw that gave a strong indication it would be the EA Pass+ rate (~20% less than EA full rates). ABRP uses the full rate when it calculates your total refueling cost, so I subtract 20% from that.

Plus we get 250 kWh free to start off with. I think I figured that works out to ~$125.
 

FredT

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The only thing I don't like about PHEV is that in winter times if you want the heater to work the engine has to run other wise it does not produce heat.
I didn't know that. I would hate that feature.
 


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A couple of thoughts here:
  • I agree that Ford needs to contribute in some way to make DCFC charging more worry free (ie widely available, reliable, and affordable). I don't think it necessarily needs to be Ford branded, but certainly the Ford brand's success in the BEV space is contingent upon the reliability of whoever's network does provide that service. Clearly the evidence (from Kyle of out-of-spec and others) suggests that EA is not currently fulfilling that need. That IS a problem for Ford that needs to be addressed. I can say with absolute certainty that one of my criteria for which BEV I buy IS the charging network, including availability, reliability, and cost. The most generous score I can give Ford in that regard is a 1 out of 3.
This isn't really a Ford issue, its an all non-Tesla BEV issue. Practically speaking (which means excluding Tesla and CHAdeMO) every car works with every station. This includes all the new BEVs coming out (excluding Cybertruck). Ford could put a lot of capital in but I'm not sure they would ever see a return on investment. Even if there were double the fast charge stations, it won't affect Mach-E sales in a measurable manner. Besides, it takes time to do that so they wouldn't be ready for a few years. Just in time when their competitors are releasing new and existing BEVs.

I guess my point is:
  • It's not solely Ford's problem.
  • They could spend a lot of money right now to help their competitors but that doesn't make any sense for their bottom line.

This is a matter of chicken/egg and industry inertia of which Ford is only a small part.
 

timbop

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It's not solely Ford's problem.
No, it is definitely not ONLY Ford's problem, but it is A problem that will affect MME and other Ford BEV sales. Until it is addressed, it will infringe to some degree on Ford's BEV sales.

They could spend a lot of money right now to help their competitors but that doesn't make any sense for their bottom line.
Which is why the suggestion that they should work together with other CCS-based BEV manufacturers here in the US like they did in Europe was a good one. The only caveat is that the coalition of OEM's would need to enforce a better service level agreement than is currently being offered by EA.

Alternatively Ford could leverage some of their strategically located dealerships to put in DCFC chargers. Those could then be "Ford vehicles only", or better yet make them publicly available but Ford vehicles get Tesla-level pricing and everyone else gets EA-level prices. They could also do something like GM is apparently doing with EVGo and invest in an existing charging company, but with the benefit that Ford BEV's will get a preferred rate and guaranteed level of service.

The point is that there are things they could do to improve the situation in their favor, but are not.
 

zhackwyatt

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No, it is definitely not ONLY Ford's problem, but it is A problem that will affect MME and other Ford BEV sales. Until it is addressed, it will infringe to some degree on Ford's BEV sales.


Which is why the suggestion that they should work together with other CCS-based BEV manufacturers here in the US like they did in Europe was a good one. The only caveat is that the coalition of OEM's would need to enforce a better service level agreement than is currently being offered by EA.

Alternatively Ford could leverage some of their strategically located dealerships to put in DCFC chargers. Those could then be "Ford vehicles only", or better yet make them publicly available but Ford vehicles get Tesla-level pricing and everyone else gets EA-level prices. They could also do something like GM is apparently doing with EVGo and invest in an existing charging company, but with the benefit that Ford BEV's will get a preferred rate and guaranteed level of service.

The point is that there are things they could do to improve the situation in their favor, but are not.
Anyone have numbers on how expensive it is to install a Level 3 station?

I'm just not sure there is an ROI at this moment. Ideally yes, the manufacturers would form some coalition, or even the gas station companies could since it will affect them too.
 

timbop

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Anyone have numbers on how expensive it is to install a Level 3 station?

I'm just not sure there is an ROI at this moment. Ideally yes, the manufacturers would form some coalition, or even the gas station companies could since it will affect them too.
I wasn't suggesting them starting a new charging service as a coalition, but rather as a coalition investing in EA, EVGo, or someone else - which would give them leverage to not only get cheaper pricing for the member's BEVS, but also SLA's that have to be met.

EA just feels like a half-assed government mandated program with minimal oversight and little accountability, so there is no real incentive to do better than they are. At this point they have a monopoly on truly fast charging with no one to answer to regarding their performance - other than the requirement from the courts to spend billions of Volkswagon's dollars.
 

dbsb3233

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No, it is definitely not ONLY Ford's problem, but it is A problem that will affect MME and other Ford BEV sales. Until it is addressed, it will infringe to some degree on Ford's BEV sales.
This is probably true to some degree. But we should also remember where Ford's BEV sales fit within their total vehicle sales. For the 2021MY, the Mach-e represents just a tiny 1%. The Transit BEV will likely be commercial use in cities, so typically not using public charging. The F-150 BEV is still 2 years away, and even though it's a version of the mighty F-150, it will likely still be swamped by continuing ICE and hybrid F-150 sales.

So a modest hit in their few% of sales that are BEVs is pretty insignificant to Ford. At least until around mid-decade. By then they'll surely be ramping up more BEV models. But by then EA and ChargePoint and EVgo and others should have built a much more robust CCS charging network too... without Ford having to throw tons of precious resources at it.

Until then, the Mach-e should sell 20k Mach-e's in North America just fine for 2021MY, and another 20k-30k for 2022MY, etc, to people that are happy enough using them mostly as home-base vehicles.
 

hybrid2bev

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Anyone have numbers on how expensive it is to install a Level 3 station?

I'm just not sure there is an ROI at this moment. Ideally yes, the manufacturers would form some coalition, or even the gas station companies could since it will affect them too.
From the MI State study of installing L3 chargers. Seems a bit high.

24 - 150 kWh stations is estimated at 4.3 million = about $180k each for just the station
43 - 50 kWh stations is estimated at 6.64 million = about $154k each for just the station

14.6 million for 24 150 kWh stations = about $608k all in costs per station.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...t-Opt-PhaseI-Final-Report-021319_646220_7.pdf

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dbsb3233

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I wasn't suggesting them starting a new charging service as a coalition, but rather as a coalition investing in EA, EVGo, or someone else - which would give them leverage to not only get cheaper pricing for the member's BEVS, but also SLA's that have to be met.

EA just feels like a half-assed government mandated program with minimal oversight and little accountability, so there is no real incentive to do better than they are. At this point they have a monopoly on truly fast charging with no one to answer to regarding their performance - other than the requirement from the courts to spend billions of Volkswagon's dollars.
That's probably a fair assessment of EA. But let's face it -- revenues have to be pretty sparse for them so far. There's still very few BEVs on the roads in NA, and most of them do the vast majority of their charging at home. Frankly, I'm surprised they're as built-out as they are already (as you say, that's only due to the $billions from the VW settlement).

The retail charging business needs revenues from customers to thrive. And that requires more (good) BEV vehicles being made and sold. As we see with the Mach-e, the Niro, the Kona, etc, battery supply still limits how many can be made. It's gonna take patience. This is gonna be a decade-long ramp up, not just a year or two.
 

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I get it. I had a PHEV for three years and loved the times when I could drive electric only. I dreamed of the day that I could go totally electric. Maybe if EA can improve the reliability if their network it will be workable. But watching the Out of Spec video of his trip to Florida in a Kona makes me very nervous.
I just watched that video .. woof... that's not a great experience. No reason those EA stations should be that unreliable.

Also only charging 50-60kw looks unbearable.
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