ClaudeMach-E

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Ford "negotiating a lower rate" at EA would likely mean Ford subsidizing a lower rate. Which I'm not in favor of. That simply means they'd be passing that subsidy on into the purchase price of the Mach-e. (There is no free lunch.)

I'm still guessing the FordPass subscription will simply include existing EA Pass+ pricing.
I believe it's already included just like SC access is included in Tesla prices.
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dbsb3233

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I believe it's already included just like SC access is included in Tesla prices.
2 years' worth, yes. Fortunately the EA Pass+ subscription is only $4/mo, thus $96 for 2 years. So they don't have to jack up the Mach-e price by much to cover that (assuming that's what's being included).

I wouldn't want them to pre-charge us for like $1000 worth of electricity or something built into the price. That just screws the people that will do little-to-no retail charging. I assume Tesla did a lot of that in building the SC network (passing a lot of that on in the price of Tesla vehicles). I'd rather Ford keep the price of any charging out of the cost of the vehicles.
 

timbop

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I'm still guessing the FordPass subscription will simply include existing EA Pass+ pricing.
Yes, I agree that's their plan. And that plan sucks.

Tesla is able to charge half what the EA rates are, and yet the LR AWD Model Y is cheaper than the premium ER AWD EVEN WITH THE $7500 TAX REBATE.

I get that they're proud of being able to say every single MME will be profitable, but how greedy are they getting with those profits? Where the money should come from is little of that markup Hackett's so proud of, just as Tesla did to not only subsidize charging rates but to actually build the whole network.

The real problem is EA knowing they are a virtual fast charging monopoly and pricing commensurately. EA got the money to build the network from the VW settlement, and still wants to demand a premium on the electricity. Ford is unwilling to pay anything for the infrastructure without which they couldn't sell a single BEV, nor share the burden or strongarm EA to get more reasonable consumer prices from that monopoly.

Wether you personally plan to use the charging or not, NO BEV's would ever sell without the charging infrastructure.
 

dbsb3233

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I get the impression that the profit margin on the Mach-e will be relatively small, not large. But I really don't have any solid data on that. That's just what I gleamed from various articles. It is curious how Tesla seems to be able to make the Y cheaper, or at least that's what the pricing suggests. Maybe that's the advantage from having their own battery factory. Ford is probably paying much more for their batteries from LG Chem.

EA does pretty much have a monopoly in the US for DCFC for non-Tesla vehicles. And that's unfortunate (presumably a big reason their rates are so high). I assume their prices will come down with more competition, and perhaps with more customers. BEVs are still very much in their infancy (roughly 2% market share). That should improve as the decade progresses.

While I agree that a lack of a DCFC charging network would slow BEV sales significantly, I think saying they would never sell is a bit of an overreach. We had some (non-Tesla) BEV sales in the US before EA. And I think a (smaller) number of MMEs would still sell if EA didn't exist, mostly as around-home vehicles. But more to the point, I don't think there's anything wrong with Ford following the ICE model of auto manufacturers and gas stations being independent (albeit symbiotic) businesses. In fact, I support it. As such, I don't think Ford holds any obligation to build or subsidize a charging network. There will be growing pains in this early stage, but in the long run I think keeping separate BEV manufacturers and charging networks is far more efficient, and advantageous.
 

ClaudeMach-E

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I have seen pictures of a Ford DCFC chargers at an autoshow that looked like a Tesla SC, what is the intention here, installing them at dealer's site?
 


hybrid2bev

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I have seen pictures of a Ford DCFC chargers at an autoshow that looked like a Tesla SC, what is the intention here, installing them at dealer's site?
What you saw are AC powered level 2 chargers, not DC fast chargers. Yes, to be an EV certified Ford dealer, they are required to have at least one customer facing charger. It does not have to be the ones you have seen, it could be any level 2 charger.
 

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So we can charge at any Ford dealer if charger available? Will they let the car sit there overnight?
 

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So we can charge at any Ford dealer if charger available? Will they let the car sit there overnight?
That is a question for the individual Ford dealer to answer--they are all independent so you're likely to get a different answer from each one of them.

First thing to check, however, is if their charger is accessible when the dealership is closed.
 

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So we can charge at any Ford dealer if charger available? Will they let the car sit there overnight?
I wouldn't count on that. Pretty sure that's not the intent, although some may let you get away with it. It's surely there primarily as a sales aid, like to demonstrate charging to a potential customer, and to charge the BEVs on their lot. They might let other customers use them, but they're unlikely to let them be tied up for lengthy periods (defeats the purpose). And as Jamie said, many dealers close their lots overnight.

Plus, dealerships are usually in commercial areas, not residential. Few people are gonna be within easy walking distance of one even if they do leave the lot and charger open to the public (which I sure wouldn't).
 

krafty81

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I wouldn't count on that. Pretty sure that's not the intent, although some may let you get away with it. It's surely there primarily as a sales aid, like to demonstrate charging to a potential customer, and to charge the BEVs on their lot. They might let other customers use them, but they're unlikely to let them be tied up for lengthy periods (defeats the purpose). And as Jamie said, many dealers close their lots overnight.

Plus, dealerships are usually in commercial areas, not residential. Few people are gonna be within easy walking distance of one even if they do leave the lot and charger open to the public (which I sure wouldn't).
I am just thinking about if I am on a trip - easy to stop at a Ford Dealer, probably other stuff around there while car is charging. And I can play with the Broncos!
 

dbsb3233

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I am just thinking about if I am on a trip - easy to stop at a Ford Dealer, probably other stuff around there while car is charging. And I can play with the Broncos!
They're most likely L2 chargers though, not L3. Which makes them of little value on a road trip, unless your hotel is next door and you can get to the charger overnight.

An hour of L2 charging adds only about 20 minutes of highway speed driving.
 

ajmartineau

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There are a lot of DCFC out there that are not Electrify America. I’ve used them.
 

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There are a lot of DCFC out there that are not Electrify America. I’ve used them.
But for road trips, the 100kW+ chargers are what we really need. Still too many "holes" in the system that make longer distance travel more troublesome.
 

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It still depends on how you want to travel. If you're hellbent on making that trip in as short of time as possible (or have a time limit): drive an ICE or PHEV.

If on the other hand, you're taking a more relaxed approach then taking an EV may make for a serene experience (unless, of course, you get stressed out worrying where your next charge will come from--careful planning and opportunity charging can avoid this).
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