This is the reason it will be hard for Ford to compete with Tesla

[BDC]

I see a lot of posts that seem to be conflating a broad sales and repair network with the dealer model. These seem very different to me - yes, having lots of places that can repair my car in easy distance is great and clearly a plus. What I am not sure is a plus is having those service centers independently owned and run, selling different services at varying prices. I would still want to be able to go to an independent garage, but I don't see the benefit to having Ford branded repair shops not be answerable directly to FMC.

As for the "it's just a one time thing" when buying the car - maybe. But if my first experience with a car is dishonesty and incompetence, it doesn't seem unreasonable to worry about subsequent interactions. Not saying my dealer is either of those (I don't think they are), but some dealers are and it hurts Ford's ability to adapt to modern sales practices. And I have walked out of a dishonest hard sell dealership and bought an entirely different brand of car, so yes, this does cost these companies sales.

Sponsored

 

[Randy E.]

Ford needs to find a way to get themselves away from the dealership model. That is their Achilles heel. They need need to start doing direct transaction with customers as Telsa does.

Here is my story/situation and what I experienced recently.

I currently own a Tesla Model 3 and have a leased Ford Focus Electric. I have a Mache on order, which should be arriving soon.. My lease is ending soon, and my buyout is low. It seems that there is some positive equity in the leased vehicle that I would like to get.

First thing, Ford doesn't allow trade-in/Sell their leases to 3rd party dealers which most of other manufacturers do. So that being out of the question, I decided to buyout the focus electric and then sell it as I don't want to pay the disposition fee when I can walk away with some money out of this. I am already loosing the state tax by not being able to sell it directly to other dealership.

Ford also doesn't allow buyout of the vehicle directly from them. They ask us to go through the dealerships(stealerships). Now I am far from the original dealer I got the car from, so ford told me to contact any local dealer to buyout the vehicle.

I contacted my closest dealer and they said they can help me with this and I would just need to fill up a Credit Application even though it was all cash buyout. I was skeptical to provide my SSN, but asked them to make sure not to pull the credit. I made the appointment to come to the dealership to buyout and to start with, the person who I talking to was not even there. I emailed him last night to confirm that I will be coming in. He even told me to come in day time to allow inspection and I need to drop it at the service first. So after some time they send me to a different person, who kept on looking for my file. Eventually he finds it and started working on it. It took almost an hour for him to get it papers ready.

One good thing I was to test drive Mache ca route 1 while I was waiting for all this. It is super nice to drive, it doesn't have the pull/acceleration of my Tesla Model 3, but it it way better fit and finish. The road noise is so low compared to my tesla.

After the test drive I noticed, there was a notice board with all the Mache listed that they have or coming for sale with all of them marked up +3K. I mean it a good car, but come on it would gladly get a model y than to pay these dealers this markup. On top of it, this is the same dealer who told me when I was planning to order the Mache that the $500 deposit is non-refundable. I ordered from another dealer. So if they did not refund the customers who ordered these maches from this dealership, they are basically making $3500 on top of MSRP for each one of them. That is where Tesla works well. You know what you are going to pay and not have to deal with middle man. There was a customer there who was interested in the mache and was inquiring about it. They told him, that there is 3k markup on each. So he asked if that would be the case if he ordered online and they said it won't be but they might not get the car till next year. They are trying all their tactics to gouge more money. That person if cross shopping with model y, would just go back home and order it online and get it in a months time without dealing with all this.

Enough of that, coming back to my lease buyout. After a long wait for the finance manager, we go in to buyout my car and while signing the documents I see the total amount due, which was way higher than the payoff balance from Ford Financial. I knew that I would be paying taxes( which is again unnecessary if they allowed selling to third party) but it still did not add up. I asked the manager for the breakdown, and in there i see a $395 inspection fee. I was shocked to see that. When asked what was that, he said let me get the leasing person back to explain it to me.

That persons comes in and tells me it a California requirement. I stated looking into on my phone immediately and did not find anything like that. Then the finance manager comes back and tells me that this the fee for inspecting the car and check if everything is good. I was like, it is my car and I know everything works. He started showing me that he is working here for 17 years and this is common practice. I was still not convinced. I asked him is this same for every dealership? He said it may be little different. I was not even told once about this fee till that last step. I told him to wait till i call my original dealer and ask them about it. When I asked them they were confused about inspection fee and said that they don't charge that. I was on the speaker it front of that manager and he heard that. I told him, why should I pay this fee and it is not even required. So the person lied by saying it a California requirement. I made sure he shreds all the paperwork before I left the dealership. So I wasted my 2 hours there for nothing.

The problem is, why doesn't Ford financial allow me to buy it from them directly? These dealerships are there to rip-off people.

After that I called few other dealers around in the area and 50% of them were asking for $400 to $500 in different names. Either as "Acquisition Fees" or "buying option Fees". It is clearly stated on my original contract that there is no fee associated if I buy it at the term end.

What I am getting at is that I wish Ford would start transitioning away from dealers and start have more direct relations with customers like allowing buyout directly.

It is good that they allowed ordering mache directly from ford, but they should have changed it a bit. Say for example, it a buyer backs out they should have given an option to any new reservation holder with the same model living in same area to get that vehicle. If no existing reservation holder claims it for a week then allow dealership to sell it. A lot more people would have bought Mache if they would have done it differently. I am sure I would not have found 5 Maches in that dealer lot if it was sold to people waiting for it at the MSRP. Demand is high, but these practices might turn people away from a great car.

This just happened, so I apologize for the rant.

I totally agree that - not just Ford - but EVERY car manufacturer needs to start figuring out ways to sell direct. Alas, it is much, much, harder than it seems. Tesla has been pulling teeth for a decade to sell direct in many states. Over the years, Dealers have worked their way into the political sphere in almost every state, to ensure idiotic laws, such as manufactures NOT being able to sell direct. Can you imagine a setup like that in tech?! Amazon or Apple must sell their own products via a dealer! Best Buy only - "No Apple Stores for you! Next!" So sayeth the Soup Nazi.

Ironically, in free market economy, Dealers with their legislatures have made selling cars anything but an open competition, free-market space.

Yes, I believe it will take a consortium of manufacturers to push CA and TX to open up to selling direct. Once that happens, the dam will burst and dealers will see the end. This is going to take a decade of legal battles, but for the consumer it's a massive win. Politicians will see this and "should" get onboard...

SIDE NOTE: I can't find the Telluride I want, so I'm shopping nationally. KIA's forced my hand that way in not being able to meet demand. Also, since they are red-hot on the west coast, the markup is $2k-$8k! It is insane. This also got me thinking about looking beyond my region. I discovered in the rockies markup is about $2k (a bit lower than the west coast)... Moving further east, along the mighty Mississippi they offer BELOW sticker! Hit the NE and it's well over sticker again.

I have ordered from a mid-west dealer and will gladly pay the $900 to ship it to Beaverton, OR. Not an issue.

My point? This is the internet age, and the car market is acting like it's 1990, where I must go to a local dealer and be stuck with how they are dealing with me - horrible. But thanks for the IOT's, we have choices and can shop and buy wherever we want (more people need to shop this way). Over time dealers will break from consumers shopping differently while manufacturers will push to change the model. The combo should do it - I can only hope!

 

[Mirak]

Dont leave us hanging. How did the final pricing go??

My dealership experience was nearly flawless. Got exactly the price I was promised - xplan for a GRABBER BLUE FIRST EDITION CANCELLED ORDER!!!! Zero markup or shenanigans. They knew how to do Ford Options and I got all my bonus cash I’ll provide a full report tomorrow.

Barbee’s Freeway Ford in Denver CO. Dustin Gonzalez has already sold EIGHT MMEs and he’s an expert. I flew here to pick up my car and id do it again.

 

[shutterbug]

Can you imagine a setup like that in tech?! Amazon or Apple must sell their own products via a dealer! Best Buy only

You do realize that Amazon doesn't actually make anything? They sell other peoples' stuff. Apple doesn't make anything either. All their stuff is made by Chinese companies.

 

[mark360]

I am in agreement and disagreement with OP. There are advantages to both (at least today). tl;dr below.

Tesla still has dealerships technically, but yes sales are pretty much unrelated most of the time.

I agree Ford should not allow dealers to do this BS of marking up vehicles or added fees. One of the issues with dealers is new cars have very little markup compared to used and it is hard to make money without those extra fees, etc...

My local dealer, Lou Fusz Ford made me angry about 2 things with the purchase of my MME. It was on the lot and they were not asking markup, just MSRP. I wouldn't have bought it if they wanted markup. It literally showed up and I told them I wanted it but I was not financing and it takes me about 3 business days to pull money from my savings to pay for the car. The manager said he wouldn't hold it (even with $3k CC deposit) because they make more money if someone finances it. I was livid. I said I would cancel move my already ordered MME to another dealer and not bring my vehicles for service there anymore. I've used this dealer for 6 years and purchased 2 cars from them. I was seriously pissed off. The salesman called me back later and said they'd sell it to me for a larger deposit...so I went back and paid that.

Final paperwork comes in and they tacked on a $699.95 fee for "fusz guard". Its a BS package that is basically spray wax they sell as paint protectant, etc. What a rip off. I was so mad but they wouldn't budge. Rightfully so - they had me by the balls - they'd sell this car the next day if I didn't buy it...so I paid for it. Left a good review for the salesperson as she was great, but ranted about the manager and fusz guard.

I digress.....Tesla's model is nice for buying but SUCKS for everything else. These are rants from model x ownership the past 3 years. Their customer service post purchase is absolute garbage. Especially from a leasing standpoint. Service is horrible, parts is horrible, email customer service is absolutely horrible. At least Ford answers the phone when I call and will talk to me face to face. At Tesla you can't show the service advisor what's wrong with the car. You tell them over the phone when they call you a week later. They also won't even let you drop your lease off in person to turn it in. You have to take pictures on this horrible web app that doesn't even register an HEIC. So people who have no idea how to change file formats on their iPhone pictures just can't do it. You email them and ask if you can just turn it in and they don't reply. Email again and 2 days later they say "oh no, you have to do it this way".

Service at Tesla doesn't call you back a year into ownership when your 12vb dies after an update the night before. Takes 5 days to get the car back from a 12vb replacement. Insane and unacceptable. Ford would have it fixed same day you dropped it off for something that simple.

So my point is - dealership model sucks from a sales standpoint...but for everything else its better. Having individual places manage their service and parts departments works so much better.


tl;dr - I like my Ford dealer but they made me mad buying my MME. Tesla's post purchase customer service "dealership" experience is garbage because its managed by Tesla corporate.

Great story.

 

[mark360]

You do realize that Amazon doesn't actually make anything? They sell other peoples' stuff. Apple doesn't make anything either. All their stuff is made by Chinese companies.

This is true, Apple, Samsung, and others use primarily FOXCONN to build and manufacture their phones/pads/watches.

 

[EVS]

I see a lot of posts that seem to be conflating a broad sales and repair network with the dealer model. These seem very different to me - yes, having lots of places that can repair my car in easy distance is great and clearly a plus. What I am not sure is a plus is having those service centers independently owned and run, selling different services at varying prices. I would still want to be able to go to an independent garage, but I don't see the benefit to having Ford branded repair shops not be answerable directly to FMC.

As for the "it's just a one time thing" when buying the car - maybe. But if my first experience with a car is dishonesty and incompetence, it doesn't seem unreasonable to worry about subsequent interactions. Not saying my dealer is either of those (I don't think they are), but some dealers are and it hurts Ford's ability to adapt to modern sales practices. And I have walked out of a dishonest hard sell dealership and bought an entirely different brand of car, so yes, this does cost these companies sales.

The same dishonest cheating and malpractices are happening all the time at Tesla stores as well.
I remember about 2 years ago how their sales people will call up Model 3 rez holders and lie to them about expiring tax credits while everyone in the know knew they were still 2 quarter away from expiry or reduction, pushing them to buy Model S instead.

Just see some of the tweets by burnt Tesla customers and sometimes check out their forums.
People paid for FSD 4 years ago and still waiting to get it, with some people already having returned their leased vehicles. Tesla lies about FSD, lies about warranties, doesn't even provide a printed warranty booklet so they can change warranty terms post-sales without people even noticing the changes. Tesla delays recalls as much as it can and no one is there to fight for the consumers. Their only resort if to file lawsuits and fight against Tesla's highly paid croosk (I mean, lawyers).. Tesla resorts to all sorts of frauds. See their refusal to not fix yellowing screens as an example or the rocce NHTSA had to apply on them to fix the emmc chips that is killing the MOdel S&X displays. Tesla is yet to even recall & fix the failing suspensions of Model S & X, which China forced them to do a recall. Alas, US authorities are too cozy with Elon Musk to force a recall. But Tesla gets by because it has a monopoly on its sales and service network and no employee has the guts to speak the truth in fear of retribution from the corporate. A few who did are long fired. Not to mention how much of a fight some owners have to do for their "right to repair".

The "fix" for this is to have good consumer protection laws, whether it is for a monopolistic sales & service network like Tesla's or an independent network like the dealer networks. At least in the dealer network, if you don't like one, you can always try another unless you are in a really remote area with only 1 or 2 dealers. But if Tesla blacklists you or screws you, you are finished.

 

[kdukart]

I totally agree that - not just Ford - but EVERY car manufacturer needs to start figuring out ways to sell direct. Alas, it is much, much, harder than it seems. Tesla has been pulling teeth for a decade to sell direct in many states. Over the years, Dealers have worked their way into the political sphere in almost every state, to ensure idiotic laws, such as manufactures NOT being able to sell direct. Can you imagine a setup like that in tech?! Amazon or Apple must sell their own products via a dealer! Best Buy only - "No Apple Stores for you! Next!" So sayeth the Soup Nazi.

Ironically, in free market economy, Dealers with their legislatures have made selling cars anything but an open competition, free-market space.

Yes, I believe it will take a consortium of manufacturers to push CA and TX to open up to selling direct. Once that happens, the dam will burst and dealers will see the end. This is going to take a decade of legal battles, but for the consumer it's a massive win. Politicians will see this and "should" get onboard...

SIDE NOTE: I can't find the Telluride I want, so I'm shopping nationally. KIA's forced my hand that way in not being able to meet demand. Also, since they are red-hot on the west coast, the markup is $2k-$8k! It is insane. This also got me thinking about looking beyond my region. I discovered in the rockies markup is about $2k (a bit lower than the west coast)... Moving further east, along the mighty Mississippi they offer BELOW sticker! Hit the NE and it's well over sticker again.

I have ordered from a mid-west dealer and will gladly pay the $900 to ship it to Beaverton, OR. Not an issue.

My point? This is the internet age, and the car market is acting like it's 1990, where I must go to a local dealer and be stuck with how they are dealing with me - horrible. But thanks for the IOT's, we have choices and can shop and buy wherever we want (more people need to shop this way). Over time dealers will break from consumers shopping differently while manufacturers will push to change the model. The combo should do it - I can only hope!

Nice post. This is definitely about regulatory capture/rent seeking as the economists call it. Always be suspicious of laws that regulate industries for things other than safety and environment (maybe other good exceptions). Usually, that is just the industry lobbying lawmakers to give themselves a competitive advantage. If Dealers are a good model that people prefer, then they will survive. If not, they will wither and die, absent laws that artificially protect them.

I think that dealers once served a very clear purpose, kind of like how you still want to try clothes on before you buy them (well, I don't really care, but most people). But now, I can pick a car out without ever seeing it and be satisfied with all the reviews and online info. And I always know more than the salesperson. I mean always. That's not for everyone, but I would like the option to purchase it Amazon style and not have the added stress of worrying about my bargaining skills. My current experience purchasing this car has been fine so far, but I am expecting hiccups once we get close (perhaps being built this week ?). I will say, its usually just minor annoyances but I'm not interested in minor annoyances.

My experiences with Car Company branded service centers has always been positive. They always seem to have a car for me to borrow if necessary, nice facilities, sometimes even good coffee! So I think that whole model will easily survive, especially for new cars under warranty. Lots of us are happy to pay a premium for a new car with a warranty for the worry free nature of the whole thing, so long as we can get the damn dealer to sell it to us!

 

[shutterbug]

This is true, Apple, Samsung, and others use primarily FOXCONN to build and manufacture their phones/pads/watches.

True. Although Samsung does have factories that make some things, including components for their own and other's products. Samsung also makes stuff totally not related to tech.

 

[TheSteelRider]

In the past I have had TERRIBLE experiences at dealerships and agree with the OP. That said, I can't let this thread go on without at least saying that my Mach E purchase at the dealership went flawlessly. It was one of my top 2 dealership experiences, no games, in and out relatively quickly.

That is all, carryon with the dealer bashing session.

 

[EVS]

I see people compare Amazon and Apple sales to car sales. But I think there is a magnitude difference in the price of the items. A car is usually the second most expensive purchase after one's home . It's not a cheap $25 item or even a $1000 phone that you can buy and return easily if you don't like. The cars are for long term assets, and repair & service is a huge part, which doesn't apply to most of the cheap products bought through online or brick&mortar stores. Speaking os which, Tesla did try the 7-day return policy. But it didn't work out and now it is back to the no return policy just like what the100-year-old car industry is doing.

So this analogy with Amazon and Apple is broken in multiple ways. That's why there are laws to protect the consumers, like lemon laws, etc. The car industry is more than 100 years old. I'd assume some of the laws originated due to a reason and not just slapped on for some politician's whim.

BTW, Apple products are still repairable at independent shops, at least parts of it. Though they are so expensive, it's probably better off not repairing them,

 

[kdukart]

I see people compare Amazon and Apple sales to car sales. But I think there is a magnitude difference in the price of the items. A car is usually the second most expensive purchase after one's home . It's not a cheap $25 item or even a $1000 phone that you can buy and return easily if you don't like. The cars are for long term assets, and repair & service is a huge part, which doesn't apply to most of the cheap products bought through online or brick&mortar stores. Speaking os which, Tesla did try the 7-day return policy. But it didn't work out and now it is back to the no return policy just like what the100-year-old car industry is doing.

So this analogy with Amazon and Apple is broken in multiple ways. That's why there are laws to protect the consumers, like lemon laws, etc. The car industry is more than 100 years old. I'd assume some of the laws originated due to a reason and not just slapped on for some politician's whim.

BTW, Apple products are still repairable at independent shops, at least parts of it. Though they are so expensive, it's probably better off not repairing them,

Sure, don't mean to minimize the complexity of spending 50K on a car, but the truth is I can get a 50K loan from lightstream bank from my computer in a short time. I guess to fine tune the critique, i can see that some people really want a sales person and you still want to arrange test drives, but the whole purchase part does not need a guy at a desk you wait 2 hours to see to go over "options" and tell you how good of an apr deal he managed to get you. When dealerships are donating to congressmen to keep laws in place that make it illegal to sell cars in other ways, you know that something fishy is up. Rent-seeking is very real and costs consumers trillions every year.

Here's a good quick rundown of it with car dealerships: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/03/tesla-versus-the-rent-seekers.html

I will add that Tesla would get better at this if they had some damn competition at doing it. They aren't exactly competing against anyone at the moment, not much anyway.

 

[Accord07]

This is true, Apple, Samsung, and others use primarily FOXCONN to build and manufacture their phones/pads/watches.

While Apple relies on Foxconn to make its phones, Samsung operates its own factories which are now mostly in Viet Nam. As Samsung's market share in China dwindled from 20% in 2015 to under 1% by the end of 2018, it closed its two factories there and shifted production to Viet Nam.

 

[NancyF]

I see a lot of posts that seem to be conflating a broad sales and repair network with the dealer model. These seem very different to me - yes, having lots of places that can repair my car in easy distance is great and clearly a plus. What I am not sure is a plus is having those service centers independently owned and run, selling different services at varying prices. I would still want to be able to go to an independent garage, but I don't see the benefit to having Ford branded repair shops not be answerable directly to FMC.

As for the "it's just a one time thing" when buying the car - maybe. But if my first experience with a car is dishonesty and incompetence, it doesn't seem unreasonable to worry about subsequent interactions. Not saying my dealer is either of those (I don't think they are), but some dealers are and it hurts Ford's ability to adapt to modern sales practices. And I have walked out of a dishonest hard sell dealership and bought an entirely different brand of car, so yes, this does cost these companies sales.

I have been reading this thread since it was started and feel that some people here are missing the point and/or being unreasonable or inaccurate. First off, there MAY be a dishonest dealer but based upon my 64 years of being on this Earth, that dealer will not be operating long. There may be an incompetent dealer but, once again, that incompetent dealer will not be a dealer long. I question both definitions being used for "dishonest" and "incompetent".
When I first ordered my MME on the evening of the commercial back in November, 2019, I remember the voice over specifically saying the MME would be produced for sale sometime in "late" 2020. Of course, that was before anyone here ever heard of a COVID virus striking not only America but the world. I applaud Ford and its employees for getting the MME to market as quickly as they have!
How can we get mad really at dealers who did not "communicate"? Heck, those dealers did not actually know any more than we did. Are you going to tell me that those dealers know where all the suppliers are located who provided parts for the MME, that they knew or should have known of the various delays that various suppliers would encounter in their efforts to get their supplies to Ford? Come on now!
Frankly, I am sure that Ford and its suppliers were worrying about how to keep their staff safe, trying to follow the ever changing guidelines, trying to earn a buck so that they could pay that employee. (You can tell, I am an employer as well!)
Let's get real here people and stop complaining. To those of you who do not yet have your car, hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later. I know that I was elated when I got my MME three weeks ago! I love it and I hope that each of you will be driving the roads right with me soon.
I do not believe one iota in the Tesla dealer experience. I have not had an issue buying a car from my dealer at all (Rusty Eck, Wichita, Ks). They have always treated me honestly, professionally and ethically. I also had realistic expectations about communications while waiting for my MME, i.e. I expected they would talk to me when they had something to say.
I do not believe you can really separate the dealership from the service department nor the dealership from the body shop. I have read the Tesla forums where innocent drivers struck a deer or were hit by another car and had to wait absolutely months for parts and until then, had to be without a car, pay for car rental, etc. That is absolutely no way to conduct a business!
The cost of living at different locations in this country are different. Dealers should be able to price their services based upon their market. I do not want to pay in Kansas for that oil change in New York City dollars. That is silly.
So many people in this county just need to shop at that old restaurant that advertised "have it your way" because so many want something their way only and want it now. That does not work in normal circumstances and certainly not where there has been such a disruption of basic business and the deaths of millions world-wide. These are no ordinary times and to act like somehow one is entitled to special treatment is so unbecoming to us.
There really are no "special" people, just people who think they are.

 

[EVS]

Sure, don't mean to minimize the complexity of spending 50K on a car, but the truth is I can get a 50K loan from lightstream bank from my computer in a short time. I guess to fine tune the critique, i can see that some people really want a sales person and you still want to arrange test drives, but the whole purchase part does not need a guy at a desk you wait 2 hours to see to go over "options" and tell you how good of an apr deal he managed to get you. When dealerships are donating to congressmen to keep laws in place that make it illegal to sell cars in other ways, you know that something fishy is up. Rent-seeking is very real and costs consumers trillions every year.

Here's a good quick rundown of it with car dealerships: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/03/tesla-versus-the-rent-seekers.html

I will add that Tesla would get better at this if they had some damn competition at doing it. They aren't exactly competing against anyone at the moment, not much anyway.

Browsed the article. Is this one of Elon's Pravduh sites? Author seems to make a mountain out fo a mole hill on this.
" …most states have some limits on direct sales by auto manufacturers…These rules are generally meant to ensure competition, so that buyers can shop around for discounts from independent dealers, and to protect car dealers and franchises from being undercut by the automakers. "

This isn't so bad. The dealers still compete against each other. No one seems to complain when some dealer has to put large discounts to move metal.

Speaking of political lobbying, who doesn't spend money on political lobbying? Tesla spends a lot of money on that too. Be it for allowing direct sale or generous tax credits and other discounts. Tesla scammed hundreds of millions from California tax payers. How about the faux battery swap station that enabled it to scam multiple hundreds in extra ZEV credits? Does anyone think CA politicians turn a blind eye to its frauds out of generosity alone, because ELon Musk will save humanity by sending people to Mars?
What is called bribery in other countries has a fancy name of "political lobbying" in the US.

And for that loan, don't you still pay a big chunk to the bank for an origination fee, titling, notaization etc? Last year I refinance my commercial property and it cost me north of $10k! Perhaps your loan is for a car, so the cost is absorbed somewhere else.

Speaking of my own experiences, my last one was a fixed price lease by Honda. The dealer merely did some paperwork for a couple of hours for Honda and prepared the car + test drive etc. I think they made some money for that plus some money on service and repairs/recalls.

The previous one, they tried to sell me a few items, like an extended warranty etc. on a full battery car,. I declined and that was it. I did reasonable haggling. It wasn't a high demand item though.

Before that (10 years), it was internet pricing so there wasn't much of a haggling. I first bought the extended warranty, which I later cancelled to save myself a couple of grands.

Prior to that, one dealership was bad. During negotiation, an impolite sales manager came and said they can't go any lower and terminated the conversation abruptly. Fine. I went to another dealership where the salesman was more polite and I bought the car there. That was 17 years ago. Some old-style car sales manager, the type that is on their way out in the internet age.

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