Took my 2nd road trip - not great

[RickMachE]

Yes.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/tesla-owners-locked-out.11591/

Sponsored

 

[timbop]

30+ year enterprise software developer here so I know very well how buggy software can be. I also know that when you put something on the market against a competitor like Tesla that has been at it for decade+ , you need to focus on user experience because we will forgive issues for a while but they have had almost a year to solve these things.

What I do see is Tesla following an iterative software release practice where small fixes are released often. Ford, on the other hand, has pushed one OTA update for my car since I got it 5 months ago which feels like a legacy, waterfall practice that we, as a software industry have largely left behind years ago.

Ford makes a better car that is hindered by the small tech issues that are just not being addressed.

I spent a couple hours on YouTube last night looking at MME posts. I noted a distinct change in tone on many of the posts that Ford should be taking action on. People that were gushing about the car 6 months ago are posting they are beginning to have regrets. The theme is the same in most of these…. Software is unstable and Ford is making no progress on fixing it. Seconded by the charge network cannot be relied on.

In my view the software doesn’t have to be perfect but there needs to be steady progress and there is very little (none?)

who does Big Bang waterfall development these days?

why aren’t already shipped cars updated OTA to match new production?

how does the exec in charge of this stay employed?

You are very much assuming that the issue is their software development model. In fact, they very much do embrace agile as was stated in 2020 when Ford was doing their "meet the engineers" series of webinars. As has been stated ad nauseum, the OTA process is hosed - which is why the slow rollouts are happening to cars in the field. You are also very much assuming that you know what is going on behind the scenes, and you also assume that software in a 5000 pound wrecking ball should release updates every sprint.

Tesla has no qualms putting dangerous software in the hands of the public, but Ford does. Their philosophy is still to test the hell out of software before releasing it in the wild because they don't want accidents and they don't want bricked cars. The phrase is "acting responsibly" not "waterfall".

It's amazing how much smarter you guys think you are then everybody at Ford.

 

[dhoerl]

“5000 pound wrecking ball” ???

 

[Jimct]

A major push you say?

Like $7.5 billion dollars of government money approved in a infrastructure bill that they should vote on and approve in early November 2021?

Make sure to write and thank your congressional representative.

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/ch...tric-vehicle-charging-stations--is-it-enough-

Right, let me specify: the charging stations need to be in interstate highway service areas. The bill doesn't address locations, let's hope more Walmarts isn't the emphasis.

 

[Mach1E]

Right, let me specify: the charging stations need to be in interstate highway service areas. The bill doesn't address locations, let's hope more Walmarts isn't the emphasis.

The money will go to the people who install them.

So they’re going to put them where they can make the most money, which should coincide with where they are most needed/will get the most usage.

 

[Blue highway]

You are very much assuming that the issue is their software development model. In fact, they very much do embrace agile as was stated in 2020 when Ford was doing their "meet the engineers" series of webinars. As has been stated ad nauseum, the OTA process is hosed - which is why the slow rollouts are happening to cars in the field. You are also very much assuming that you know what is going on behind the scenes, and you also assume that software in a 5000 pound wrecking ball should release updates every sprint.

Tesla has no qualms putting dangerous software in the hands of the public, but Ford does. Their philosophy is still to test the hell out of software before releasing it in the wild because they don't want accidents and they don't want bricked cars. The phrase is "acting responsibly" not "waterfall".

It's amazing how much smarter you guys think you are then everybody at Ford.

I’ve seen some things in the forum about OTA being in trouble, but I don’t recall seeing anything from Ford on that. Is there something definitive somewhere or are we assuming that it is broken based on what we are seeing?

If OTA works at least a little and If code is good enough for new production why is it not ok for a car with the same hardware?

is fixing phone as a key going to send a 5000 lb wrecking ball down the road? How about addressing the charger navigation? Or having car play stay assigned to the correct profile? Or….

These development programs are complicated and I don’t think I’m smarter than anybody, but from the perspective of having led enterprise wide SW development efforts I don’t see a lot of evidence of an agile approach is being used. Are there monthly updates? Quarterly updates? Other?

My perspective comes from having my teams do two week sprints, a week to clean up and plan for the next sprint. The architects kept the scrum teams busy and QA and testing did something similar schedule wise so that every 1~2 months some specific functionality would be released.

This doesn’t feel like that.

 

[ericNdfw]

You are very much assuming that the issue is their software development model. In fact, they very much do embrace agile as was stated in 2020 when Ford was doing their "meet the engineers" series of webinars. As has been stated ad nauseum, the OTA process is hosed - which is why the slow rollouts are happening to cars in the field. You are also very much assuming that you know what is going on behind the scenes, and you also assume that software in a 5000 pound wrecking ball should release updates every sprint.

Tesla has no qualms putting dangerous software in the hands of the public, but Ford does. Their philosophy is still to test the hell out of software before releasing it in the wild because they don't want accidents and they don't want bricked cars. The phrase is "acting responsibly" not "waterfall".

It's amazing how much smarter you guys think you are then everybody at Ford.

WRT to Tesla's self-driving vs. Ford's, I completely agree with you (and Ford); don't put it out until it's 110% ready and worth the $600 fee. (as demoed so far, it's not much better than existing capability) And Tesla has, IMO, been at fault for the over-marketing of autopilot's capabilities to the point where people have died because they had too much trust in it (or were being stupid).

WRT to driving systems that impact the control of my "5000 lb wrecking ball", those systems have nothing to do with the bugs in the Snyc system that I'm talking about. (or at least they it shouldn't)

OTA issues may have been discussed "ad nauseum" as you say here on the forums, but the only official word I've heard from FoMoCo is "updates are coming soon".

Your "every sprint" point is hyperbole that I never said. I said regular, small releases, done often so that they are routine. Ford has had this car on the roads for nearly a year ... more so if you count pre-release testing. It's apparent that they either did not test OTA fixes ahead of time or their internal SDLC processes are hobbled keeping them from shipping. The fact that they packed several items into a single update that took months to ship is evidence of this.

In their defense, maybe they ARE doing releases often to test mules and they are so bad at it that they can't give them to the general public. I actually HOPE that is the case and that they are learning from those failures so someday we'll start getting them.

FWIW, right now, I am waiting on the following promised updates (some cars are coming off the line with these):
* Remote frunk release
* Instant power usage gauge (is on the GT, should be on all)
* PaaK stability/bug fixes
* CarPlay stability/bug fixes (esp wireless) <--- admittedly, this may be Apple's problem
* Departure time zone stuck in Detroit (iPhone app view/UI issue only, I think)
* "Journeys" not always being recorded
* Fix Sync interface slowness for the first 10-20 seconds after startup. (This is better since 1.7.1 but still not great)
* Occasionally fails to put driver seat back to pre-set position on start
* Correcting power curve for CCS above 80% to not be such a cliff (reported to be coming soon)
* Opening up battery buffer (reported to be coming soon)

 

[ARK]

It’s true in some places the Tesla coverage is better than CCS. Sorry to hear about this experience.

Knowing how to reset Sync is important. Just like an iPhone, anything software heavy will eventually bug out and knowing how to do a reset is key.

Being able to skip a charger on the navigation is a good suggestion. Though as mentioned, you can totally disable the automatic routing. However, I will say the Ford navigation wasn’t totally wrong here - you ended your trip with 4% charge. I think it’s correct for the navigation to protest that a driver does not have enough charge if the margin is that close.

 

[deadduck]

Rebooting software is not an answer. It is, but it isn't.

Maybe CR has it pretty right about software reliability being the achilles heel of these things.

 

[ericNdfw]

It’s true in some places the Tesla coverage is better than CCS. Sorry to hear about this experience.

I'd argue in almost every case, but Tesla has a long head-start so it's to be expected and hopefully will improve.

Knowing how to reset Sync is important. Just like an iPhone, anything software heavy will eventually bug out and knowing how to do a reset is key.

I know HOW to reset Snyc but given the overall flakiness of it, I was less-than-comfortable doing so 130+ miles from home in the case it didn't come back up cleanly. (probably irrational, I know) Doing a reset is not a "key" either, it's a workaround for a failure state they haven't otherwise handled, I've driven 3 PHEVs before this that all were fairly high-tech and none of them ever needed a hard reset like that, ever. (Unless turning it off and back on again did just that... but that's a much more intuitive action than telling people to look in the manual for the magic CTRL-ALT-DEL analog for their car.)

Being able to skip a charger on the navigation is a good suggestion. Though as mentioned, you can totally disable the automatic routing. However, I will say the Ford navigation wasn’t totally wrong here - you ended your trip with 4% charge. I think it’s correct for the navigation to protest that a driver does not have enough charge if the margin is that close.

I agree that the nav system's cautionary stance is fine and, yes, I could have disabled it if I wanted to exit the freeway and mess with it. It was just an added annoyance on the last leg of the trip.

My main point here is that Ford has entered a heavily competitive arena where Tesla and others have set a high bar and they are not meeting it. When people spend this much money on a car, they expect it to at least work.

Not to sound overly dramatic but if the Model 3 or Y were better looking and didn't rely so heavily on that center screen for everything —as good as it is, I want more real controls— I'd probably have one on order and trade this MME in. This kills me because I love everything else about this car and would love to upgrade to a GTPE in a year or two, but not if we're still talking about these glitches. (And if Kia's rumored EV Stinger actually happens, I'll have my order in on day 1.)

 

[ericNdfw]

@ericNdfw - you missed his point, you are wrong and the MME is perfect

lol - I wish it was perfect because I love the way it drives and looks!

What do you think will happen first: Tesla, a world class software company, becomes a word class manufacturer OR Ford becomes a world class software company?

Honestly, given the current track record of both offerings, I'd have to bet on Tesla as of today. I hope Ford proves me wrong.

 

[Dmhccs]

I hate to say but I feel like I want to keep my Volvo XC90 recharge hybrid for longer trips.

 

[voxel]

First of all, CarPlay screen projection just stopped working. The audio would play and it said it was connected but the center screen was completely blank in the CarPlay app. I tried rebooting the phone, turning the MME off and on and disabling wireless CarPlay but nothing fixed it.

CarPlay is crap. It really is. It's a buggy slow pile of horse dung.

I struggled with it on my ID.4 as it fought the built-in nav + satellite radio system and I'm fighting it again with the Mach-E. I wish I could just use the built in Mach-E voice command system to control CarPlay apps but that doesn't seem possible.

I sticking with wired CarPlay and only allowing Spotify and maybe Google Maps + Waze. However, I plan to mainly use satellite radio and the built in nav most of the time - as it makes everything less frustrating.

 

[DrSteveBrule]

You are very much assuming that the issue is their software development model. In fact, they very much do embrace agile as was stated in 2020 when Ford was doing their "meet the engineers" series of webinars. As has been stated ad nauseum, the OTA process is hosed - which is why the slow rollouts are happening to cars in the field. You are also very much assuming that you know what is going on behind the scenes, and you also assume that software in a 5000 pound wrecking ball should release updates every sprint.

Tesla has no qualms putting dangerous software in the hands of the public, but Ford does. Their philosophy is still to test the hell out of software before releasing it in the wild because they don't want accidents and they don't want bricked cars. The phrase is "acting responsibly" not "waterfall".

It's amazing how much smarter you guys think you are then everybody at Ford.

Here's the first of 12 principles of the Manifesto for Agile Software Development:

1. Customer satisfaction by early and continuous delivery of valuable software.

I'll willingly debate the merits/deficiencies of this approach, but if Ford won't do continuous delivery, they're not following agile methodology. I worked with a guy who liked to yell "security" in part to prove the point that the louder you claim you do something, the less likely it is you're actually doing it. Seems to be the case here. Again, happy to talk through whether it makes sense in this context, but there are principles and structure to this for a reason.

 

[ahg]

The money will go to the people who install them.

So they’re going to put them where they can make the most money, which should coincide with where they are most needed/will get the most usage.

Most people are going to shop at their closest Walmart. If they charge at home they are not likely to charge at Walmart. I suspect that the universe of Walmart shoppers who have BEVs but no charger at home is pretty small.

People who have to charge while traveling are mostly going to be on interstates and equivalent roads and they are going to choose the closest charger which means a charger just off the interstate rather than a charger at a Walmart which may not be near the interstate.

Sponsored