Toyota Mirai Owners; There Is No Fuel And We Want Out Of These Cars

atikovi

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If an alternative fuel along the likes of hydrogen has that many negative issues, why isn't CNG promoted as extensively as 10 or 15 years ago. The refueling infrastructure while tiny compared to gasoline, is huge compared to hydrogen. And stations are available nationally and could be up scaled fairly easily. I drove from DC to Oklahoma in a dedicated CNG powered car last fall and never had any worry of running out. And out in OK is costs 69 cents a gallon.





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GoGoGadgetMachE

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If an alternative fuel along the likes of hydrogen has that many negative issues, why isn't CNG promoted as extensively as 10 or 15 years ago. The refueling infrastructure while tiny compared to gasoline, is huge compared to hydrogen. And stations are available nationally and could be up scaled fairly easily. I drove from DC to Oklahoma in a dedicated CNG powered car last fall and never had any worry of running out. And out in OK is costs 69 cents a gallon.
I can't say for a fact but I believe a lot of this is because hydrogen is seen as "greener" than CNG. Of course as this thread gets into, given the current primary source of hydrogen, that's problematic, but anyway...
 

atikovi

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I can't say for a fact but I believe a lot of this is because hydrogen is seen as "greener" than CNG.
Not sure of that, but here some bits of info on CNG:

Nearly 100% of the natural gas used in the U.S. is produced in the USA

Supply and price not subject to the whims of OPEC, foreign turmoil and other external forces

Extensive U.S. reserves, worlds 4th largest behind Russia, Iran and Qatar

Stable prices. Gasoline fluctuates almost daily, CNG has been the same for the last 6 months

Lower cost. Back when gasoline was over $4 a few years ago, CNG was under $2

Home refueling appliances can cut fuel expenses even more to under $1 a gallon today

If you have a gas well on your property, you could drive for free

Extends engine life by burning cleaner than gasoline

Doesn’t dilute or contaminate motor oil, oil looks as clean after 5,000 miles as when new

Ultra high octane rating of 130

Reduced emissions. 50% less CO and NOx and 15% less CO2 than gasoline

Regional commuting and parking perks such as driving solo in the HOV lanes

Federal tax incentives such as a 50 cent per gallon tax credit for business use
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Not sure of that, but here some bits of info on CNG:

Nearly 100% of the natural gas used in the U.S. is produced in the USA

Supply and price not subject to the whims of OPEC, foreign turmoil and other external forces

Extensive U.S. reserves, worlds 4th largest behind Russia, Iran and Qatar

Stable prices. Gasoline fluctuates almost daily, CNG has been the same for the last 6 months

Lower cost. Back when gasoline was over $4 a few years ago, CNG was under $2

Home refueling appliances can cut fuel expenses even more to under $1 a gallon today

If you have a gas well on your property, you could drive for free

Extends engine life by burning cleaner than gasoline

Doesn’t dilute or contaminate motor oil, oil looks as clean after 5,000 miles as when new

Ultra high octane rating of 130

Reduced emissions. 50% less CO and NOx and 15% less CO2 than gasoline

Regional commuting and parking perks such as driving solo in the HOV lanes

Federal tax incentives such as a 50 cent per gallon tax credit for business use
a lot of the things that matter on that list are true for hydrogen and BEVs so they don't really sell CNG over hydrogen or BEV use - pretty much every talking point against gasoline for example. (in fact all of the gasoline comparisons are at best meaningless in this context )

And emissions are still a lot higher than hydrogen (which is literally water from the exhaust) or BEVs in some cases (depending on generation source).

and methane leakage is a major greenhouse gas problem we are fighting right now, plus methane is 100x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas, so "15% less than gasoline" is a net loss from that viewpoint.

not saying CNG isn't without some benefits, but there are legitimate negatives as well. on the whole, properly-sourced, properly-available hydrogen (which again, not a thing today) is seen as being overall better.

tbh your whole post reads like a petroleum lobbyist copy and paste.
 
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atikovi

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not saying CNG isn't without some benefits, but there are legitimate negatives as well. on the whole, properly-sourced, properly-available hydrogen (which again, not a thing today) is seen as being overall better.

tbh your whole post reads like a petroleum lobbyist copy and paste.
Hydrogen may be great, but if it's not available, what's the point of it. CNG is available now. Actually, I used that info for selling my CNG car.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Hydrogen may be great, but if it's not available, what's the point of it. CNG is available now. Actually, I used that info for selling my CNG car.
we're kind of going back over territory covered in the thread already at this point.

I told you why people don't think about CNG versus hydrogen at this point - hydrogen is what's seen as a more environmental choice.

but (almost) nobody realistically is cross-shopping those two technologies today. At this point the real choice for the average car buyer is gasoline vs.... well, nothing for the average car buyer, if we're all being honest:
  • Diesel is tied to the old stinky diesel legacy and Dieselgate
  • CNG is too weird for most people and is seen as environmentally problematic (and for some people, dangerous - note a response of "but it's not" doesn't change what some people believe right now and that's the question on the table)
  • hydrogen has the availability and greenwashing concerns
  • BEVs are not quite price competitive yet (and that's ignoring range anxiety).
That all said, going back to CNG specifically, it basically swaps out one dead dinosaur fuel with another, and in some ways a worse one. Hydrogen at least has a theoretical path forward to not caring about dead dinosaurs for cars. CNG doesn't do that, so it's ultimately just as much a dead-end as gasoline is.

If you're making a car for only today, CNG has advantages. But if you're choosing one for tomorrow, then it's very problematic.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Except U.S. oil reserves are expected to run dry in about 10 years. Then what? Hope the Arabs don't raise the price to $200 a barrel? There is enough natural gas here for 90 years.
dead end is dead end. a longer timeframe doesn't change that it's a dead end.

the "90 years" thing - which I'm taking your word for on its face, as I am the "10 years" - would by definition make assumptions including that current production methods will continue to be viable. Are you willing to bet that in 50 years, fracking will still be allowed let alone economical? 25 years even?

I have a natural gas fireplace, water heater, and clothes dryer, the latter two of which I bought myself while in the house and the former was part of why I bought the house - so I'm not exactly "Mr. Hates Natural Gas" here. But that doesn't mean I don't see issues with it.

You asked why isn't CNG being considered more, and I told you why. Ultimately whether you agree with the given reasons doesn't really change the reasons.
 

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If an alternative fuel along the likes of hydrogen has that many negative issues, why isn't CNG promoted as extensively as 10 or 15 years ago. The refueling infrastructure while tiny compared to gasoline, is huge compared to hydrogen. And stations are available nationally and could be up scaled fairly easily. I drove from DC to Oklahoma in a dedicated CNG powered car last fall and never had any worry of running out. And out in OK is costs 69 cents a gallon.
You hit the nail right on the head! Ultimately, I see a lot of these as green washing by governments to promote new R&D and infrastructure work to keep people busy and have a growing GDP. CNG didn't fit that bill, It was too easy. So was the hybrid cars. So what to do? Let's start promoting electric cars. Tons of battery mining, processing, new R&D work for faster charging and longer range batteries, millions of new chargers to install, huge electrical grid upgrade to supply millions of cars chaging at the same time, etc etc.

Let's do hydrogen which is a difficult gas to cope with. It's a huge research opportunity when you throw a complex problem at people.
Let's do bitcoin, a massively environmentally unfiendly thing that has very little (no?) practical benefit for humas except to employ a lot of people and drive demand for a lot of tech products.

If anyone really cared about the environment, they would be preaching public transport and give away free bus passes. :)
 
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timbop

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Not sure of that, but here some bits of info on CNG:

Nearly 100% of the natural gas used in the U.S. is produced in the USA

Supply and price not subject to the whims of OPEC, foreign turmoil and other external forces

Extensive U.S. reserves, worlds 4th largest behind Russia, Iran and Qatar

Stable prices. Gasoline fluctuates almost daily, CNG has been the same for the last 6 months

Lower cost. Back when gasoline was over $4 a few years ago, CNG was under $2

Home refueling appliances can cut fuel expenses even more to under $1 a gallon today

If you have a gas well on your property, you could drive for free

Extends engine life by burning cleaner than gasoline

Doesn’t dilute or contaminate motor oil, oil looks as clean after 5,000 miles as when new

Ultra high octane rating of 130

Reduced emissions. 50% less CO and NOx and 15% less CO2 than gasoline

Regional commuting and parking perks such as driving solo in the HOV lanes

Federal tax incentives such as a 50 cent per gallon tax credit for business use
It's almost like you tick those points off every day when making presentations...
 

ab13

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Hydrogen may be great, but if it's not available, what's the point of it. CNG is available now. Actually, I used that info for selling my CNG car.
When you burn anything, gas, CNG, coal, wood, etc.. you create waste byproducts that are hazardous. Also, you've converted the matter irreversibly to release energy. The point of hydrogen is it only involves hydrogen, oxygen and water to transfer energy in a reversible manner.
 

atikovi

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When you burn anything, gas, CNG, coal, wood, etc.. you create waste byproducts that are hazardous. Also, you've converted the matter irreversibly to release energy. The point of hydrogen is it only involves hydrogen, oxygen and water to transfer energy in a reversible manner.
Do you actually know how hydrogen for motor vehicle fuel is produced?
 

ab13

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Do you actually know how hydrogen for motor vehicle fuel is produced?
I understand that many processes can include conversion from natural gas, which is why backup power fuel cell systems can be connected to a natural gas line.

However, the ideal process is electrolysis of water to split it into hydrogen and oxygen, which requires adding energy. Most of the research being done is to find the proper catalyst material to make this efficient. A fuel cell is used to "reverse" the process to use hydrogen and oxygen to release the energy and water is reformed.
 
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RonTCat

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Not sure of that, but here some bits of info on CNG:

Nearly 100% of the natural gas used in the U.S. is produced in the USA

Supply and price not subject to the whims of OPEC, foreign turmoil and other external forces

Extensive U.S. reserves, worlds 4th largest behind Russia, Iran and Qatar

Stable prices. Gasoline fluctuates almost daily, CNG has been the same for the last 6 months

Lower cost. Back when gasoline was over $4 a few years ago, CNG was under $2

Home refueling appliances can cut fuel expenses even more to under $1 a gallon today

If you have a gas well on your property, you could drive for free

Extends engine life by burning cleaner than gasoline

Doesn’t dilute or contaminate motor oil, oil looks as clean after 5,000 miles as when new

Ultra high octane rating of 130

Reduced emissions. 50% less CO and NOx and 15% less CO2 than gasoline

Regional commuting and parking perks such as driving solo in the HOV lanes

Federal tax incentives such as a 50 cent per gallon tax credit for business use

These all sound great, except...

- CNG tank pressure is 3600psi. Currently you have to locate filling stations a few hundred feet from anything. Fueling process safety is a large concern.
- GM had catastrophic failures of CNG fuel systems on a few vehicles. This caused almost all CNG vehicle development to be scrapped at all high volume vehicle manufacturers. Niche CNG vehicle uses remain, like buses.

It is magnitudes safer and emission friendly to use natural gas to generate electricity, and drive electric cars.
 

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