What if the Mache was aluminum and carbon?

trutolife27

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My question is how much range would any of us save. With a carbon fiber aftermarket hood?
Or when someone starts making Ev's frame out of aluminum.

Few of you like to do numbers and math so here is one for you. How much weight would the mache save with a carbon fiber hood and an aluminum frame?
Then take that weight saved and give me an estimate on the range effect and 0 to 60 time.

Once all the auto manufacturers are involved I'm sure it will start happening.



View attachment 11140
 

AndyS_OSU

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My question is how much range would any of us save. With a carbon fiber aftermarket hood?
Or when someone starts making Ev's frame out of aluminum.

Few of you like to do numbers and math so here is one for you. How much weight would the mache save with a carbon fiber hood and an aluminum frame?
Then take that weight saved and give me an estimate on the range effect and 0 to 60 time.

Once all the auto manufacturers are involved I'm sure it will start happening.



View attachment 11140
I have no idea about the numbers thing but I know this was the whole point for BMW 6 years ago. My i3 had a carbon fiber frame and more non-metal parts.

That said, at the time it really didn’t deliver revolutionary range or anything. Would be interesting to see what could happen with those materials combined with industry standard battery tech now.
 

kdryden99

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The problem is CF doesnt do well in cold weather and unfortunately you cant repair it if it gets damaged. Its more expensive than steel. Steel is very light these days, not as light as carbon but not as heavy as 15yrs ago so going carbon hood i think would have minimal affect on the weight. The aluminium might not be a bad idea but the weight of the battery forces manufacturers to use steel. Yes Tesla uses steel contrary to popular believe, only certain sections are aluminium. Thats why invested so much money on their die cut tech and alloy. Because it was the only way they could reduce the weight but making a chassis that wouldnt crack. So itll be a while before the switch is done for OEM's toput more Aluminium.
 

balthisar

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Ford in particular has a lot of experience with aluminum, something it kind of picked up from owning Jaguar, and its aluminum intensive vehicle (Taurus/Sable), culminating with the current F-series and Expedition, of course.

Aluminum's expensive. Joining aluminum is expensive. Repairing aluminum is expensive. There are a lot of logistical concerns with aluminum that aren't present for steel. So it's starting out at a big disadvantage right there.

Because of the weight of the battery, I'm not sure that reducing the weight of the hood makes a meaningful contribution. If we assume 1,993 kg stock (just a Google figure), saving 10 kg of weight is less than half of 1% of the weight of the car. Frankly, unless you're racing and milliseconds matter, going to carbon fiber hoods on an S550 Mustang doesn't get you anything noticeable on its own, either. It's cheaper and better for your health to lose 10 kg of fat.

Structurally the MME is a unibody vehicle; it's not a true, separate skateboard that's akin to a body-on-frame. This makes it rather easy to build an aluminum F-series and Expedition, because they're still riding on separate frames that can handle the impact separately from the body.

Manufacturers also might choose to reduce battery size and weight rather than increase range and acceleration when moving to aluminum construction. For example, if Ford is happy with a 270 mile range and takes 200 kg off the weight of body components, it might choose to save reduce the battery size, weight, and cost correspondingly to keep the 270 range. That kind of tradeoff is left to the MBA's to calculate their business cases, though.

"Mixed materials" is something to keep on eye on, though.
 

ARK

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I will say if I drive my 2006 Mustang GT hard on twists and I am running on fumes, I can usually feel a small difference in handling. The car weighs just under 3,500 pounds, the 15 gallons of gas about 90 pounds, and with me inside, figure the car comes out to about 3,750.

So running on fumes, the car is closer to 3,650. That’s a difference of around 2.5% in weight savings on the car when the tank is just about empty.

How much would it cost to save that percentage of weight or more on the MME which weighs around a 1,000 pounds more? I think those modifications are likely to cost a pretty penny.
 


ChasingCoral

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I think in the case of the Mach E, these changes in materials would be like a fat bicyclist buying titanium bolts to lighten their bike. It's probably much easier to drop battery weight in the near future.
 
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trutolife27

trutolife27

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Ford in particular has a lot of experience with aluminum, something it kind of picked up from owning Jaguar, and its aluminum intensive vehicle (Taurus/Sable), culminating with the current F-series and Expedition, of course.

Aluminum's expensive. Joining aluminum is expensive. Repairing aluminum is expensive. There are a lot of logistical concerns with aluminum that aren't present for steel. So it's starting out at a big disadvantage right there.

Because of the weight of the battery, I'm not sure that reducing the weight of the hood makes a meaningful contribution. If we assume 1,993 kg stock (just a Google figure), saving 10 kg of weight is less than half of 1% of the weight of the car. Frankly, unless you're racing and milliseconds matter, going to carbon fiber hoods on an S550 Mustang doesn't get you anything noticeable on its own, either. It's cheaper and better for your health to lose 10 kg of fat.

Structurally the MME is a unibody vehicle; it's not a true, separate skateboard that's akin to a body-on-frame. This makes it rather easy to build an aluminum F-series and Expedition, because they're still riding on separate frames that can handle the impact separately from the body.

Manufacturers also might choose to reduce battery size and weight rather than increase range and acceleration when moving to aluminum construction. For example, if Ford is happy with a 270 mile range and takes 200 kg off the weight of body components, it might choose to save reduce the battery size, weight, and cost correspondingly to keep the 270 range. That kind of tradeoff is left to the MBA's to calculate their business cases, though.

"Mixed materials" is something to keep on eye on, though.
good, write up. I have seen everything you wrote first hand. it's the plant I work. Worked on both launches the consumables on aluminum vehicles are very costly.
 

Gimme_my_MME

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good, write up. I have seen everything you wrote first hand. it's the plant I work. Worked on both launches the consumables on aluminum vehicles are very costly.
There's also the ability to recycle the aluminum scrap from production that impacts the overall bottom line
Ford recycles as much as 20 million pounds of aluminum stamping scrap per month using the closed-loop system at Dearborn Stamping Plant, which provides parts to build F-150 at Ford’s Dearborn Truck and Kansas City Assembly Plants.​
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Ford in particular has a lot of experience with aluminum, something it kind of picked up from owning Jaguar, and its aluminum intensive vehicle (Taurus/Sable), culminating with the current F-series and Expedition, of course.
I very much enjoyed that when Ford first announced this move in the F-Series, GM did some advertising along the lines of "WE HAVE STEEL STILL BECAUSE TRUCK!" and nearly everyone was like "duh you're going to aluminum soon and you know it and for the same reasons; then what are you gonna say?"
 

mr_raider

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Part of the reason I ordered a Mach E is that it's made of normal steel and not expensive aluminum that can only be fixed at specialized body shops.

Downside? I understand the curb weight is comparable to a small military vehicle.
 

balthisar

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This is interesting, some new steel grade used on the Broncos. Maybe they will review it for the future on the Mach E.
Ah, Gen 3 steel, the bane of my previous existence, and the assurance of my continued current existence, professionally. It's hard to spot weld, and sometimes things that look "bad" are okay, but sometimes they're not okay. And when it comes to the quality of body welding, I can assure you, Ford takes it more seriously than anyone else in the world. I can't share the data, but I'm speaking fact.

Luckily Ford is moving to glue. Welding won't disappear, of course, but new materials mean new joining methods.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Ah, Gen 3 steel, the bane of my previous existence, and the assurance of my continued current existence, professionally. It's hard to spot weld, and sometimes things that look "bad" are okay, but sometimes they're not okay. And when it comes to the quality of body welding, I can assure you, Ford takes it more seriously than anyone else in the world. I can't share the data, but I'm speaking fact.

Luckily Ford is moving to glue. Welding won't disappear, of course, but new materials mean new joining methods.
well, sure - I mean, we all know glue works with steel pretty well.

Ford Mustang Mach-E What if the Mache was aluminum and carbon? 1609463766235
 

dbsb3233

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I think in the case of the Mach E, these changes in materials would be like a fat bicyclist buying titanium bolts to lighten their bike. It's probably much easier to drop battery weight in the near future.
Agreed. And it's really a matter for all BEVs, especially the ones of the future. If we have any hope of making a much broader range of vehicles that consumers want in BEV form, batteries are going to have to be capable of much more.

Frankly, trying to squeeze every little tiny gain out of aerodynamics and weight and shape just to get acceptable range out of a BEV is a bad sign for the broader acceptance of BEVs. Even with big gains in the last few years, they're still quite limited right now. The real solution is to get much more out of the batteries. Then the MME will automatically get better range.
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