Why aren't Ford dealers required to have fast chargers?

Vulnox

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My point is simply that, while yes there are still many holes where we need more DCFC chargers, dealerships are usually not good fits for them. A shopping plaza with restaurants in the lot is better... a convenience store is better... a mall is better... a grocery store is better...

Those are the types of things most people would find useful to kill 30 minutes at during a charge, not car shopping.
Yeah I agree totally, I would rather sit almost anywhere but a car dealership. I never for a second said otherwise so my misunderstanding on your response was that I didn't see why you were countering something I never said. But while dealerships can't really be forced to install them, they are a more easily encouraged candidate for them and are already pretty spread out.

My ideal situation would be more states installing fast chargers at the already pretty perfectly spaced out rest stops on most major highways. I am guessing that many of those don't have the electrical infrastructure for it though. My issue with most other stops, even if it were dealerships or McDonalds or whatever, is how easy it would be to get back on the highway. With rest stops its almost always extremely easy, and a 20-30 minute rest stop every couple hours would keep you on a good pace for charging and driving.

 

dbsb3233

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Yeah I agree totally, I would rather sit almost anywhere but a car dealership. I never for a second said otherwise so my misunderstanding on your response was that I didn't see why you were countering something I never said. But while dealerships can't really be forced to install them, they are a more easily encouraged candidate for them and are already pretty spread out.

My ideal situation would be more states installing fast chargers at the already pretty perfectly spaced out rest stops on most major highways. I am guessing that many of those don't have the electrical infrastructure for it though. My issue with most other stops, even if it were dealerships or McDonalds or whatever, is how easy it would be to get back on the highway. With rest stops its almost always extremely easy, and a 20-30 minute rest stop every couple hours would keep you on a good pace for charging and driving.
We seem to mostly agree on the better placement for drivers (along highway routes near off-ramps), whether that be travel plazas, shopping/eating areas, etc. Maybe rest areas too although I'm not quite as high on those since they tend to have bathrooms but no stores or restaurants. But still ok occasionally. Ideal positioning, at least.

But I disagree on dealerships being more easily encouraged businesses to install them. Or at least to any significant degree. Sure, a few have some DCFC now, usually low-end power. But so do some other random businesses. It's not an inherently good place, nor is there any compelling reason for dealerships to do so. A little L2 because they need it for internal operations, yes, but not highly expensive DCFC for the public. There's just no compelling business case for them to do so.

Sometimes it seems like people (not you per se but many in general) think "Well they sell the cars, so they should sell us charging too". But that doesn't add up. Or maybe it's more that people just want ANYONE to spend the big $$ to put DCFC in so they get to use it, and dealerships are often hated so they think they should foot the bill.

Or maybe they see Tesla providing their own proprietary network and think other manufacturers and their dealerships should too. But that's a whole different situation. Tesla had no realistic choice since they were cranking out EVs in volume long before EA and the others existed. They had to build a network if they wanted to sell cars (since EVs are all they make). But CCS manufacturers don't. Plus for most it's only a tiny slice of their overall vehicle sales (so far).
 

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We seem to mostly agree on the better placement for drivers (along highway routes near off-ramps), whether that be travel plazas, shopping/eating areas, etc. Maybe rest areas too although I'm not quite as high on those since they tend to have bathrooms but no stores or restaurants. But still ok occasionally. Ideal positioning, at least.

But I disagree on dealerships being more easily encouraged businesses to install them. Or at least to any significant degree. Sure, a few have some DCFC now, usually low-end power. But so do some other random businesses. It's not an inherently good place, nor is there any compelling reason for dealerships to do so. A little L2 because they need it for internal operations, yes, but not highly expensive DCFC for the public. There's just no compelling business case for them to do so.

Sometimes it seems like people (not you per se but many in general) think "Well they sell the cars, so they should sell us charging too". But that doesn't add up. Or maybe it's more that people just want ANYONE to spend the big $$ to put DCFC in so they get to use it, and dealerships are often hated so they think they should foot the bill.

Or maybe they see Tesla providing their own proprietary network and think other manufacturers and their dealerships should too. But that's a whole different situation. Tesla had no realistic choice since they were cranking out EVs in volume long before EA and the others existed. They had to build a network if they wanted to sell cars (since EVs are all they make). But CCS manufacturers don't. Plus for most it's only a tiny slice of their overall vehicle sales (so far).
I don't expect anyone to build out charging stations except those companies that specifically want to be in that business. Where I would appreciate Ford getting more involved is in ensuring the charging experience is good. Like using their partnership with EA to ensure higher charger reliability and ease of use. While I haven't personally had a ton of EA experience, from watching many hours of road trips from YouTube EV owners (like Out of Spec Motoring or our own Mach-E Vlog), it's disappointing seeing DCFCs that they get to and are out of order, or maybe the cooling is broken so it caps out at 50 kW or whatever.

For that route I have mentioned a few times, I am even fine stopping at that Harley DCFC, even if it's 50kW, but am worried about getting to it and finding it broken or in use and I am now in a corridor with no other chargers nearby. I know a lot of this will just come with network and hardware maturity, but I hope that comes along quick. When planning routes I find myself less afraid of using a slow charger, and more afraid of getting to it and it doesn't work at all. I hope the OEMs can unite a bit to at least ensure a good experience, no matter who is deploying the chargers.
 

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I'm confused by Ford selling EV's and not at least requiring their dealerships to have fast DC charging stations. I'm nearing delivery of my Mustang Mach-E GT and likely won't be able to make a trip from Saint Paul MN to Green Bay without hours of slow charging. There are tons of Ford dealers along that trip, and not one of them has a fast charger.
Most of them don't even have a 240v plug. This doesn't meet my expectations at all.

As I've driven this route for years
. I expected no problem for this route with all the dealers. Then I stopped by the dealerships and found NOTHING at theses dealership to fill in the charging gaps. Does anyone else expect more from FORD dealerships?

DCFC charge stations are incredibly expensive to install.... and many Dealer lots are gated after hours, I don't think they could ever come close to selling enough charge to pay for the station.

They *SHOULD* all have at least one WallCharger, and one 240v outlet available to show customers, test chargers, and top up EVs that come in for Service.
 

dbsb3233

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I don't expect anyone to build out charging stations except those companies that specifically want to be in that business. Where I would appreciate Ford getting more involved is in ensuring the charging experience is good. Like using their partnership with EA to ensure higher charger reliability and ease of use. While I haven't personally had a ton of EA experience, from watching many hours of road trips from YouTube EV owners (like Out of Spec Motoring or our own Mach-E Vlog), it's disappointing seeing DCFCs that they get to and are out of order, or maybe the cooling is broken so it caps out at 50 kW or whatever.

For that route I have mentioned a few times, I am even fine stopping at that Harley DCFC, even if it's 50kW, but am worried about getting to it and finding it broken or in use and I am now in a corridor with no other chargers nearby. I know a lot of this will just come with network and hardware maturity, but I hope that comes along quick. When planning routes I find myself less afraid of using a slow charger, and more afraid of getting to it and it doesn't work at all. I hope the OEMs can unite a bit to at least ensure a good experience, no matter who is deploying the chargers.
Yep, that's one thing everyone agrees on (drivers, charging networks, automakers)... the need for better reliability.

The chargers themselves are the responsibility of the charger owner, but sometimes it's the car model itself (thus the automaker's responsibility). And sometimes it's the interface between the two where they both need to work together to solve issues.

Ford is helping out some with their Charging Angels program too, trying to identify problem chargers to help networks find those that need attention.

Behind the scenes, I would assume they're working together on R&D as well. Including the manufacturers that make charger hardware. Newer generations of chargers will likely improve a lot.
 


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I can't complain. My town is pretty remote with less the. 5000 ppl, and my dealership has a lvl2 (for free) , and will be installing another shortly they said.
 

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Happy with my dealer as well. No market adjustment and they had 2 L2 chargers when I signed up in January and they have 4 now. They are free and they have a restaurant for breakfast and lunch , not free, too.
 

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I'm confused by Ford selling EV's and not at least requiring their dealerships to have fast DC charging stations. I'm nearing delivery of my Mustang Mach-E GT and likely won't be able to make a trip from Saint Paul MN to Green Bay without hours of slow charging. There are tons of Ford dealers along that trip, and not one of them has a fast charger.
Most of them don't even have a 240v plug. This doesn't meet my expectations at all.

As I've driven this route for years
. I expected no problem for this route with all the dealers. Then I stopped by the dealerships and found NOTHING at theses dealership to fill in the charging gaps. Does anyone else expect more from FORD dealerships?
I have not read the whole thread but direct your attention to this thread: https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...y-fast-chargers-non-negotiable-pricing.21666/

Ford seems to have a plan to do exactly what you suggest.
 

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SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

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Well, maybe Ford does read these blogs.
Or, as I said, they must compete with others with large established charging networks.

It's also going to be interesting if you plug your Ford into a Tesla charger; what data might Tesla get? Just the marketing data might be worth gold. Poor Ford owners were saved by Telsa chargers in the middle of Wisconsin; what a great ad that would make.

Perhaps Ford needs to utilize all those dealerships to jump-start its own network.


;)
 
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SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

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Compete at losing money.
It's not any one thing. You can lose at charging, and make money at car sales and home charging equipment. And long term even make money at charging stations. Sort term loosing money is what investing is. Loosing money, as you say, made Elong and Jeffrey the richest guys on the planet, and in space. Sit back and worry about making short term profits, and watch the guys with the long game eat you alive.
 

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It's not any one thing. You can lose at charging, and make money at car sales and home charging equipment. And long term even make money at charging stations. Sort term loosing money is what investing is. Loosing money, as you say, made Elong and Jeffrey the richest guys on the planet, and in space. Sit back and worry about making short term profits, and watch the guys with the long game eat you alive.
Rt29 has a 50kW charger in Colby Wisconsin. That is west of Wausau. Rt29 has been recently identified as a Wisconsin alternative fuel route meaning ev chargers are going in the future. Errr, I bet it takes two years like 2024 begore anything arrives. EA has a tenative spot at Walmart in Wausau. As for a lack of chargers in rural fly over states, ask Michigan and Wisconsin what happen to the VW millions dedicated to such
 
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SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

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Rt29 has a 50kW charger in Colby Wisconsin. That is west of Wausau. Rt29 has been recently identified as a Wisconsin alternative fuel route meaning ev chargers are going in the future. Errr, I bet it takes two years like 2024 begore anything arrives. EA has a tenative spot at Walmart in Wausau. As for a lack of chargers in rural fly over states, ask Michigan and Wisconsin what happen to the VW millions dedicated to such
Yes I've used the one in Colby, has a Subway and a Hardee's?
 
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SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT

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Okay, let's just say that GreenBay is an example of a small city outside the top 50 cities in the US.
It's the third largest city in Wisconsin.
It's a destination because of Lambeau Field (AKA it's an NFL city), so people drive to it.
No, I'm not a Packer backer!
As of Sept 2022, the only fast charger within 30 miles of GB is the one at the Ford dealership, Dorsch Ford. People are lining up, (I've been in the line) to charge at Dorsch Ford, it wasn't free, but it was faster than anything else.

Yes, I understand a Ford dealership is not the best location for a charger. But come on, this dealership has one cord, and it's got a line. 480v is not as big a deal as people are making it out to be. If you are a medium size dealership, the minimum table stakes for you to sell EV's is so much bigger than the 40k to install one fast charger; that charger is a rounding error.
A Ford dealership's sign is almost that much.

Ford says 40% to 50% of its global vehicle volume to be fully electric by 2030.
One plug per dealership that will stay in business until 2030 seems a small step in the right direction.

dbsb3233 I agree with you that we should have charging stations at Targets and fast food locations. But one plug per dealership wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, the argument is over; Ford said they would require dealerships selling Ford EV's to do just that. Link



GB Fast Charging 2022.jpg

 

 
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