Why aren't Ford dealers required to have fast chargers?

[Billyk24]

Okay, let's just say that GreenBay is an example of a small city outside the top 50 cities in the US.
It's the third largest city in Wisconsin.
It's a destination because of Lambeau Field (AKA it's an NFL city), so people drive to it.
No, I'm not a Packer backer!
As of Sept 2022, the only fast charger within 30 miles of GB is the one at the Ford dealership, Dorsch Ford. People are lining up, (I've been in the line) to charge at Dorsch Ford, it wasn't free, but it was faster than anything else.

Yes, I understand a Ford dealership is not the best location for a charger. But come on, this dealership has one cord, and it's got a line. 480v is not as big a deal as people are making it out to be. If you are a medium size dealership, the minimum table stakes for you to sell EV's is so much bigger than the 40k to install one fast charger; that charger is a rounding error.
A Ford dealership's sign is almost that much.

Ford says 40% to 50% of its global vehicle volume to be fully electric by 2030.
One plug per dealership that will stay in business until 2030 seems a small step in the right direction.

dbsb3233 I agree with you that we should have charging stations at Targets and fast food locations. But one plug per dealership wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, the argument is over; Ford said they would require dealerships selling Ford EV's to do just that. Link

I hate to say this but a 24kW dcfc at a Ford dealer in 2022 should not be considered "fast". The $15 a hour charge is not a deal either. Ccs charging network has to greatly enlarge and improve for ev widespread usage.

 

[dbsb3233]

It's not any one thing. You can lose at charging, and make money at car sales and home charging equipment. And long term even make money at charging stations. Sort term loosing money is what investing is. Loosing money, as you say, made Elong and Jeffrey the richest guys on the planet, and in space. Sit back and worry about making short term profits, and watch the guys with the long game eat you alive.

I still don't think foot traffic is really what sells cars. Especially these days where more and more auto sales are pre-orders online. Slurpees and lottery tickets, yes, but not cars. Gas traffic is a huge benefit for conveniences store sales, but not auto dealership sales.

Ford isn't much of a seller of home chargers either, and I don't really expect them to be going forward. Most of those likely come from Amazon.

While I get what you're saying, I just don't think the business case is there. Not at dealerships. And frankly, not many other places either because DCFC does just a tiny fraction of the per-hour customer traffic compared to gas. A gas pump generates something like 7-10x the individual customer volume of a DCFC charger, just based on the time factor. It's probably modest help (for generating additional customers) at something like a restaurant, but even then not much.

Losing money early while volume builds would make some sense if the business case looked good at higher volume, but it still looks weak at high volume too. At least for somewhere like a dealership. Perhaps at a restaurant or travel center. A Loves or a Pilot travel center are often good fits as they're well positioned for road trip traffic. There's always exceptions, of course, like a dealership that just happens to be located in the right spot for travelers and is next to the services they'd use. But of course that has nothing to do with the dealership making it a good location, it's the other stuff.

 

[dbsb3233]

@dbsb3233 I agree with you that we should have charging stations at Targets and fast food locations. But one plug per dealership wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, the argument is over; Ford said they would require dealerships selling Ford EV's to do just that. Link

Participating dealerships. How many will bother to participate is a big question. Some will, particularly in the big cities (where it's usually least needed). But I'm not expecting a huge network of 2000 Ford dealerships to offer high power road trip charging like many want.

I fully get the desire to WANT there to be more high power DCFC all over. We all agree on that. I just don't think dealerships are very good places for it in most cases. I'd much rather see more DCFC going it at far more useful places. This dealership idea just seems like a bad fit, and a waste. And perhaps really just a way for Ford to squeeze dealerships out of the EV game, which may very well be the real plan all along.

 

[4sallypat]

DCFC charge stations are incredibly expensive to install.... and many Dealer lots are gated after hours, I don't think they could ever come close to selling enough charge to pay for the station.

They *SHOULD* all have at least one WallCharger, and one 240v outlet available to show customers, test chargers, and top up EVs that come in for Service.

Very expensive L3 charger hardware yes, but have you seen the power requirements for a DCFC ?

I asked my EV certified electrician and he said, I would need 480V 3 phase power in order to get a DCFC in my house. He said only industrial businesses have that type of power.

Forcing Ford dealers to install a DCFC is near impossible for those that are in low density population or rural areas.

My father on a farm that uses 3 phase 240V would not even qualify for the voltage requirements...

 

[dtbaker61]

Very expensive L3 charger hardware yes, but have you seen the power requirements for a DCFC ?

yes, I have.... working with a company and two different rural electric co-ops on this exact issue.

I asked my EV certified electrician and he said, I would need 480V 3 phase power in order to get a DCFC in my house. He said only industrial businesses have that type of power.

He is correct.

All you need is regular single-phase 240v power, and either a wall mounted charger (on a 60amp circuit), or a 240v outlet (on a 50amp circuit). This is L2.... and you can get 20-30 miles of range per hour of charge. Plenty for most daily residential drivers since you can go from empty to full overnight.

Forcing Ford dealers to install a DCFC is near impossible for those that are in low density population or rural areas.

Not at all.....
*most* Ford Dealerships, even in small towns, have access to 3-phase power as they are usually on 'Main Street'. They MAY have to add a new dedicated transformer to support the load, but that's part of the cost they have taken into account.

My father on a farm that uses 3 phase 240V would not even qualify for the voltage requirements...

I'd bet that if the farm has 3-phase, you could put in a DCFC , but it might have to be a small one depending on the size of transformer serving your property. Additionally, you probably would NOT want to get one faster than 40kw because most Utilities would kill you on load DEMAND charges since they way they usually bill commercial uses a formula based on peak load in any given month.

.... DCFC chargers are not all the same. They range in output power all the way from 40kw to 300kw per 'station'. The highway-side stations along interstates are required to be at least 150kw per station, and 4 stations per location if they want to use Federal NEVI grant money.

The most common L3 chargers that we expect for a quick charge (in an hour) are the 150kw chargers, which usually have a dedicated 250kva transformer.... or Tesla superchargers use a big battery on site to buffer the loads so they draw a max of 40kw from Grid, and can spit out 150kW bursts while people charge... hoping to re-charge while nobody is there, and then deliver another burst. They do this to avoid the high-water mark of load demand charges in places that don't have a special 'ev charging' rateclass.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Phil Martin]

Very expensive L3 charger hardware yes, but have you seen the power requirements for a DCFC ?

I asked my EV certified electrician and he said, I would need 480V 3 phase power in order to get a DCFC in my house. He said only industrial businesses have that type of power.

Forcing Ford dealers to install a DCFC is near impossible for those that are in low density population or rural areas.

My father on a farm that uses 3 phase 240V would not even qualify for the voltage requirements...

480V is another animal all together. There are more hazards with 480, not just shock, these include arc-flash and burn hazards.

 

[SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT]

@SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT ... I'm showing that you shouldn't have any trouble making the trip home to saint paul without needing to stop for more than a total of 30 minutes

It looks like there are 2 CCS chargers between Green Bay and Saint Paul.
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=bc3ed8b5-3bbc-4c84-8baf-f5c2da132bf0

Wow, I didn't see the post until today. What is that app you're using?
It's calculating as the bird's file, not as the road's turn. Try PlugShare.
Stevens would add about 30 minutes to the trip all by itself, waiting for a 50kw charge would add another 40 minutes. Your app missed the new one in Chippewa Falls and Abbotsford.
The One, YES ONE charger in GreenBay is still the problem, you get there and you cant get back.
Its a charging dessert. But THANK YOU Dorsch FORD for stepping up and adding a charger.
Thats the issue with Ford, they weren't stepping up, but now Ford is saying if you want to sell electric you need to have at least one high speed charger. Which is what started this thread.

 

[Billyk24]

25kW dcfc charger can't be a modern high speed refill

 

[dbsb3233]

25kW dcfc charger can't be a modern high speed refill

No, but if they're gonna force Ford dealerships to install DCFC in order to sell EVs, that's probably what we'll end up with because the cost rises dramatically for high power.

The whole thing is just a bad idea IMO. Which makes me think it's more of a ploy by Ford to wrestle EVs sales away from dealerships and into direct sales.

We certainly need more DCFC, but dealerships are usually not good locations for it (although a few locations might be).

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

No, but if they're gonna force Ford dealerships to install DCFC in order to sell EVs, that's probably what we'll end up with because the cost rises dramatically for high power.

The whole thing is just a bad idea IMO. Which makes me think it's more of a ploy by Ford to wrestle EVs sales away from dealerships and into direct sales.

We certainly need more DCFC, but dealerships are usually not good locations for it (although a few locations might be).

Dealers having DCFC stations is an overall good idea I think, but hardly a panacea. And as with many things, haphazard implementation will prove to be less than ideal. Your comment about the type of DCFC dealers will install is probably quite accurate. I'd be surprised if many choose to go above 50 kW chargers. In fact, I'd bet a substantial percentage of dealers bail on the Model E brand at this time absent some exceptions and financial assistance from Ford.

 

[dbsb3233]

Dealers having DCFC stations is an overall good idea I think, but hardly a panacea. And as with many things, haphazard implementation will prove to be less than ideal. Your comment about the type of DCFC dealers will install is probably quite accurate. I'd be surprised if many choose to go above 50 kW chargers. In fact, I'd bet a substantial percentage of dealers bail on the Model E brand at this time absent some exceptions and financial assistance from Ford.

I know most EV drivers just want more DCFC anywhere and everywhere they can get it. I get the motivation, as we definitely need more DCFC coverage. Even if it's not in a good location, any location is better than nothing when needing a charge.

But in most cases I'd consider locating them at dealerships to be haphazard implementation, as you described it. That's just not where most people are going to find it useful to kill time. That's places like restaurants and stores instead, not a car dealership.

I think part of it is people having Tesla on the mind and thinking EV manufacturers should build DCFC to fuel them, but I think that's a bad model. Especially now that we have a common charging standard (used by all but Tesla). And even then, Tesla doesn't locate them at dealerships either, but often at logical charging locations.

Some dealership locations may be fine, of course. They may be next to a store or restaurant that's useful. But that's just coincidence, not because the dealership itself is a good fit. I just don't think this Ford requirement makes sense, and may be intentionally counterproductive to squeeze dealerships out of the EV sales business.

 

[Billyk24]

If Ford wants to significantly reduce dealerships selling EV and go the direct sales route, then customers go where to get the EV? One Tesla like service center in a state or region? Is that going to cut it while GM sells EV at their dealerships?

 

[dbsb3233]

If Ford wants to significantly reduce dealerships selling EV and go the direct sales route, then customers go where to get the EV? One Tesla like service center in a state or region? Is that going to cut it while GM sells EV at their dealerships?

Not sure. Perhaps we might see dealerships as the "pick-up point", where Ford pays them a nominal fee for that service alone? Even if they don't let them sell the vehicle itself?

And of course all that is dependent on the sales laws being changed in applicable states to allow for manufacturer-direct sales. And that may or may not even happen for years (if ever). That's where Ford could be shooting themselves in the foot here. They may end up with few dealerships installing DCFC so they can sell EVs, but then also having the law in that state continue to disallow direct sales from Ford. (Perhaps forcing Ford to back off the DCFC requirement.)

Or they just install a 25kW DCFC as the bare minimum.

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