Why I'll Never Own Another ICE Vehicle. Will You?

[ridgebackpilot]

Not even remotely close to a comparison.

For one thing, BEVs came out at the same time and drove side by side with gas powered cars 100+ years ago. This is nothing new.

Cars were so much incredibly better than a horse carriage.

BEVs? As mentioned still have their pros and cons but serve literally the identical purpose as their gas counterparts.

This isn’t like computers vs analog. It’s more like computers vs slightly faster computers.

In case you hadn’t noticed, electric cars didn’t become technologically or economically viable until just a few years ago.

Now we’re headed quickly for an all-electric future. ICE cars will soon become dinosaurs, relegated to collectors and race tracks just like horses today.

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[Calipack]

GREAT THREAD!

I own a diesel pickup and a bigass Yukon Denali. I can take the diesel off road and get up into the Elk Hunting camps and tow enough to do what I need to do. I mostly use it to move my dogs and my tractors. I will probably take the bed off soon, convert it to a flatbed and customize the bumpers and fenders. I don't have any intentions of ever replacing it since I bang the hell out of it and a new one would cost a hell of a lot more than this car and get just as abused.

The logic in buying the EV was to cut the miles driven from our other vehicles and make them last 25 more years instead of 5.

I will buy another ICE. It will be a Packard, a Cadillac or a 442.

 

[Mach1E]

In case you hadn’t noticed, electric cars didn’t become technologically or economically viable until just a few years ago.

Now we’re headed quickly for an all-electric future. ICE cars will soon become dinosaurs, relegated to collectors and race tracks just like horses today.

No, I noticed, that electric cars were actually technologically AND viable a hundred years ago.

There was even a fleet of electric taxis in major cities. The history is actually quite interesting.

And the hurdles they dealt with a hundred years ago are still the same hurdles today:

Weight, range, charging and cost.

Honestly? Wouldn’t be surprised if electric cars become dinosaurs around the same time as gas powered ones.

Neither has been perfected as far as transportation goes. I still feel the best is yet to come. And it’s not just a battery with higher energy density. It’s likely a different fuel altogether.

People want to pretend that BEVs are computers and ICE are typewriters. But I’ll say it again. It’s more like a computer vs a faster computer.

They are better in some ways and worse in some ways. It’s not a clear win.

And then there are the HUGE hurdles of boats and planes and Semis. We aren’t even remotely close to an electric future there and may never get there.

 

[Electric Goat]

My next car will also be a full EV but my wife's car is still an ICE. We'd probably get a plug-in hybrid for her next vehicle. The charging and tech is not fast and reliable enough for traversing through rural canada, the great plains states and the rural mountain states.

Fast chargers are either non-existent or constantly broken here in Minnesota.

 

[mkhuffman]

No, I noticed, that electric cars were actually technologically AND viable a hundred years ago.

There was even a fleet of electric taxis in major cities. The history is actually quite interesting.

And the hurdles they dealt with a hundred years ago are still the same hurdles today:

Weight, range, charging and cost.

Honestly? Wouldn’t be surprised if electric cars become dinosaurs around the same time as gas powered ones.

Neither has been perfected as far as transportation goes. I still feel the best is yet to come. And it’s not just a battery with higher energy density. It’s likely a different fuel altogether.

People want to pretend that BEVs are computers and ICE are typewriters. But I’ll say it again. It’s more like a computer vs a faster computer.

They are better in some ways and worse in some ways. It’s not a clear win.

And then there are the HUGE hurdles of boats and planes and Semis. We aren’t even remotely close to an electric future there and may never get there.

I agree somewhat with your posts especially regarding the challenges BEVs face, but I also have no doubt we will have a 600 mile range SUV within the next 10 years. If that happens, there is no way other technologies can compete. Well, technologies that we know about as of today.

Of course some new fuel could be developed, but I don't think anything can easily compete with refueling at home. Everyone has electricity at home, and the ability to transport electricity "fuel" is very efficient.

I also don't think a heavy vehicle is a barrier. Range and refueling is, but those are on track to be resolved in the near future.

 

[Blue highway]

My next car will also be a full EV but my wife's car is still an ICE. We'd probably get a plug-in hybrid for her next vehicle. The charging and tech is not fast and reliable enough for traversing through rural canada, the great plains states and the rural mountain states.

Fast chargers are either non-existent or constantly broken here in Minnesota.

I find myself looking to see where posters are from when I read these kinds of threads. The charging infrastructure in the upper Midwest and prairie provinces is simply not adequate. Warm climates are a lot more friendly to EV only people.

there are vast parts of the west that my MME can not practically traverse…. Yet. I hope I’ve already bought my last ICE car, but DCFCs will have to become a lot more common for that to happen.

 

[Mach1E]

I agree somewhat with your posts especially regarding the challenges BEVs face, but I also have no doubt we will have a 600 mile range SUV within the next 10 years. If that happens, there is no way other technologies can compete. Well, technologies that we know about as of today.

Of course some new fuel could be developed, but I don't think anything can easily compete with refueling at home. Everyone has electricity at home, and the ability to transport electricity "fuel" is very efficient.

I also don't think a heavy vehicle is a barrier. Range and refueling is, but those are on track to be resolved in the near future.

Weight and range (energy density) has always been a barrier.

Less of an issue where it’s less of an issue (passenger cars).

But the bigger you get, the more mass you have to move and the father you have to travel…… batteries may face an impossible hurdle.

Boats for example are a huge issue.

A 100 kWh battery replaces roughly 10 gallons of gasoline, and weighs 1200 lbs.

Not a problem for a car. But for a boat? 10 gallons isn’t gonna get you there let alone home. Even a smallish boat (23’) carries 100 gallons of fuel. 12,000 lbs of batteries just isn’t possible in a 23’ boat.

Even worse for planes. To get the range and be able to carry the payload, the battery weight wouldn’t get you off the ground.

 

[ridgebackpilot]

Weight and range (energy density) has always been a barrier.

Less of an issue where it’s less of an issue (passenger cars).

But the bigger you get, the more mass you have to move and the father you have to travel…… batteries may face an impossible hurdle.

Boats for example are a huge issue.

A 100 kWh battery replaces roughly 10 gallons of gasoline, and weighs 1200 lbs.

Not a problem for a car. But for a boat? 10 gallons isn’t gonna get you there let alone home. Even a smallish boat (23’) carries 100 gallons of fuel. 12,000 lbs of batteries just isn’t possible in a 23’ boat.

Even worse for planes. To get the range and be able to carry the payload, the battery weight wouldn’t get you off the ground.

We already have electric airplanes, but they're relatively small with limited range. So far.

Battery technology continues to evolve so rapidly that it won't be long before we're powering our cars with solid-state batteries. Over time, it seems certain that power capacity will increase and weight will decrease. Imagine "Moore's Law" for batteries.

 

[mkhuffman]

Weight and range (energy density) has always been a barrier.

Less of an issue where it’s less of an issue (passenger cars).

But the bigger you get, the more mass you have to move and the father you have to travel…… batteries may face an impossible hurdle.

Boats for example are a huge issue.

A 100 kWh battery replaces roughly 10 gallons of gasoline, and weighs 1200 lbs.

Not a problem for a car. But for a boat? 10 gallons isn’t gonna get you there let alone home. Even a smallish boat (23’) carries 100 gallons of fuel. 12,000 lbs of batteries just isn’t possible in a 23’ boat.

Even worse for planes. To get the range and be able to carry the payload, the battery weight wouldn’t get you off the ground.

That is all true using today's battery technology. But I think it is reasonable to expect battery technology to continue to improve. Solid state batteries are on the verge of being able to be mass produced, and even conservative companies like Toyota are planning for them.

 

[imstriker]

I expect to buy at least one more ICE vehicle in my life. As long as we have a camper and boat that we want to move around more then 100 miles, I'm afraid we won't have a choice. The Lightning is an amazing truck, but seeing less then 100 mile range on tests people are running seems realistic.

So for now, my Gladiator gets to hang around and I suspect it will need to be replaced at some point by another ICE. Energy density and charging needs some massive upgrades before real towing can happen.

 

[imstriker]

We already have electric airplanes, but they're relatively small with limited range. So far.

Battery technology continues to evolve so rapidly that it won't be long before we're powering our cars with solid-state batteries. Over time, it seems certain that power capacity will increase and weight will decrease. Imagine "Moore's Law" for batteries.

The Pipistrel look like amazing planes for pattern work. I really wish a flight school around me would get a hold of one.

 

[DR.J56]

No, I noticed, that electric cars were actually technologically AND viable a hundred years ago.

There was even a fleet of electric taxis in major cities. The history is actually quite interesting.

And the hurdles they dealt with a hundred years ago are still the same hurdles today:

Weight, range, charging and cost.

Honestly? Wouldn’t be surprised if electric cars become dinosaurs around the same time as gas powered ones.

Neither has been perfected as far as transportation goes. I still feel the best is yet to come. And it’s not just a battery with higher energy density. It’s likely a different fuel altogether.

People want to pretend that BEVs are computers and ICE are typewriters. But I’ll say it again. It’s more like a computer vs a faster computer.

They are better in some ways and worse in some ways. It’s not a clear win.

And then there are the HUGE hurdles of boats and planes and Semis. We aren’t even remotely close to an electric future there and may never get there.

Agree 100%. This is just the tip of the iceberg (no pun intended).

To answer OP’s question: I will always need to own an ICE vehicle. 17K pound 5th wheel won’t get far down the road behind an electric truck, no matter how good the battery tech gets.

 

[TGIF]

We have family in New Mexico, 700 miles away. The Audi TDI make the trip on one tank of fuel. I'd have to make 3 stops in the Mustang.

I had a 300 mile trip yesterday and stopped to charge twice. I visited with a fellow MME owner at the second stop and he asked if I had noticed far less fatigue when traveling longer distances due to charging stops. I had remarked on this earlier to my DH so I think it’s a thing.

 

[TGIF]

In case you hadn’t noticed, electric cars didn’t become technologically or economically viable until just a few years ago.

Now we’re headed quickly for an all-electric future. ICE cars will soon become dinosaurs, relegated to collectors and race tracks just like horses today.

I do wonder if the incredibly large size of the US means there will be a prolonged period of coexistence between ICE and EV. Time truly will tell. I do think far more people would be adequately served by an EV than currently think so.

 

[Mach1E]

We already have electric airplanes, but they're relatively small with limited range. So far.

Battery technology continues to evolve so rapidly that it won't be long before we're powering our cars with solid-state batteries. Over time, it seems certain that power capacity will increase and weight will decrease. Imagine "Moore's Law" for batteries.

“Imagine” is right. Moore’s law doesn’t apply to batteries. It’s fantasy to think it does.

Energy density is a “physics” problem, not merely a technological one.

You can only safely cram so much power into so little space.

Solid state is definitely better, but still not enough.

If the “we hope to” claims of solid state battery people are to be believed, they’ll weigh half as much as a lithium battery now.

And that’s still waaaaay too heavy for boats, planes and rigs.

We have been trying to make batteries better for well over a century. I don’t think the breakthrough is right around the corner.

My guess is that batteries aren’t the end game. Something else will have to be or we will have to continue with internal combustion engines.

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