Why owning any new EV today won't be a long-term ownership for many

RickMachE

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Some of us are older, and have owned many cars over the years. For many of us, a standard ownership period was maybe 8 - 10 years, sometimes more, the idea of running the vehicle into the ground. We did that with many, but not all, of our vehicles. Traded in an old minivan during Cash for Clunkers in 2009, traded in a 15 year old Explorer to buy our 2013 F-150.

Decisions were easier. Am I happy with the vehicle's repair costs, operating costs, and appearance? Do I have the yearn for something new? And maybe, just maybe, is there some "new thing" that I have to have?

Now, with technology rapidly changing, that timeframe for many of us is going to get much shorter. I was already planning a new strategy as we entered retirement of owning new vehicles every few years, especially as we have access to Ford's A-Plan. The current market had me thinking of accelerating that, because of the combination of driving a newer vehicle coupled with making thousands in profits.

In our 8 months of charging experience, we came upon more than a handful of older Level 2 chargers, barely capable of charging the Mach-E from 10% to 100% overnight, such as at a hotel. We also realized that often it's not worth the trouble of finding a slower level 2 charger if you're only going to be somewhere for an hour or so. One hotel's level 2 charger was inoperative, while their Tesla charger might have worked (no Tesla Tap in our trunk yet). A semi-regular destination hotel has a few Level 2 chargers, upgraded after we stayed there in 2019 and had issues with their obsolete chargers. They put in new chargers which we discovered when we returned in 2021. Sounds great, right? Except they are only 5.3kW. Plugging in at 10% didn't give us a full charge by morning.

This was recently reinforced as we plan a trip to a state park with our son and his family, and decide whether to take the Mach-E or the F-150. Considered cost, considered time to get there (11 hour trip, with stops, in F-150, add at least 2 hours with the Mach-E). Then I started looking at charging opportunities at the destination. There's several DC chargers within 30 minutes or less, but the park has an EV charger. That's where PlugShare comes in, and I realize that the charger is a Level 1 charger, putting out a whopping 1.8kW of pure, raw power powered by 120v. Do the math - with a 10% loss in efficiency, that's 1.62kW. Take the 88kW battery, arrive with 20%, and go to 100% to leave. 88 x .8 = 70.4. 70.4 / 1.62 = 43.5 hours. Even if I didn't need the car every day, hogging the charger for 2 full days is pretty rude.

Luckily the campground has many RV sites, each with a nice 50 amp 14-50 outlet. I've gotten them to agree to let us use one as long as they have one open, even though we're going to be in a cabin. We'll use the portable charger and charge up overnight.

This reinforces to make sure you review your planned stops in PlugShare, and always check with your lodging destination as to what chargers exist, whether they operate, and what speed they operate at. Make sure you talk to someone knowledgeable (took us 4 attempts via email to get actual facts from the park office).

Technology is rapidly changing. Batteries, charging speeds, navigation and driving aids. The model of driving a vehicle into the ground is going to change for many as they realize they can cut a trip's duration significantly and charge less often in the years to come. I'm thinking we'll carefully watch technology for the next few years, and dump any current technology EV once the range doubles or the charging speed halves, or both.
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Scooby24

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Def not. I usually go through cars at least once a year if not sooner.. I forced myself into the options to justify ATTEMPTING to keep this for 3 years but the reality is, advancements are going to happen so fast these cars are quickly going to lose competitiveness with newer options. I don't think they'll be obsolete, but they will definitely not be up to the same standards we will likely see in 5-10 years.
 

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You bring up good points. And then when you factor in the costs that are going to be associated with running a car like the MME into the ground, it will speed up that time frame a lot too. With LED headlights at $2K each just for parts, the HVB a lot more, and a ton of other EV parts that are very expensive, the idea of keeping these cars on the road over 8 to 10 years gets really expensive really quick.
 
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RickMachE

RickMachE

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Yes, but those fancy headlights are also making their way into ICE vehicles, along with other common features like driving technologies. I can justify pushing an ICE longer than an EV based on range and charging times though.
 

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One hotel's level 2 charger was inoperative, while their Tesla charger might have worked (no Tesla Tap in our trunk yet). A semi-regular destination hotel has a few Level 2 chargers, upgraded after we stayed there in 2019 and had issues with their obsolete chargers. They put in new chargers which we discovered when we returned in 2021. Sounds great, right? Except they are only 5.3kW. Plugging in at 10% didn't give us a full charge by morning.

This reinforces to make sure you review your planned stops in PlugShare, and always check with your lodging destination as to what chargers exist, whether they operate, and what speed they operate at. Make sure you talk to someone knowledgeable (took us 4 attempts via email to get actual facts from the park office).
Agreed on the use of PlugShare. On our trip to FL and back last month I looked at hotels and used PlugShare to make sure they (1) had multiple chargers, and (2) reports said the chargers were working fairly recently. I ruled out a few hotels reporting broken or erratic chargers and one that posted how "you might be able to fix it, be sure to bring a T-10 to open the box".
 


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Only pushback to this argument is if you are using your EV entirely for local/suburban/city driving. If that is the case and you seldom drive over 100 miles a day and can plug in everynight at home, then I think you could keep your EV for 10 or 20 years and not really care too much about eventual battery degradation. For long trips, having an ICE/Hybrid makes sense for the next few years, but as EV tech and charging infrastructure improves, maybe in 2025 or so, 2 EV households will become more common
 

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You bring up good points. And then when you factor in the costs that are going to be associated with running a car like the MME into the ground, it will speed up that time frame a lot too. With LED headlights at $2K each just for parts, the HVB a lot more, and a ton of other EV parts that are very expensive, the idea of keeping these cars on the road over 8 to 10 years gets really expensive really quick.
LED headlights should never need replacing if they are properly driven.

The HVB should last that long (or longer) if properly maintained. Even if not the technology is going to advance and cost is going to decrease on replacements over the next decade.

If anything I can see holding onto this car even longer. Especially when I would consider myself capable of module repair once out of warranty (EE degrees and microsoldering experience FTW). Don’t doubt that this will become my 5 year old daughters car when she turns 16.
 

Pushrods&Capacitors

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Some of us are older, and have owned many cars over the years. For many of us, a standard ownership period was maybe 8 - 10 years, sometimes more, the idea of running the vehicle into the ground. We did that with many, but not all, of our vehicles. Traded in an old minivan during Cash for Clunkers in 2009, traded in a 15 year old Explorer to buy our 2013 F-150.

Decisions were easier. Am I happy with the vehicle's repair costs, operating costs, and appearance? Do I have the yearn for something new? And maybe, just maybe, is there some "new thing" that I have to have?

Now, with technology rapidly changing, that timeframe for many of us is going to get much shorter. I was already planning a new strategy as we entered retirement of owning new vehicles every few years, especially as we have access to Ford's A-Plan. The current market had me thinking of accelerating that, because of the combination of driving a newer vehicle coupled with making thousands in profits.

In our 8 months of charging experience, we came upon more than a handful of older Level 2 chargers, barely capable of charging the Mach-E from 10% to 100% overnight, such as at a hotel. We also realized that often it's not worth the trouble of finding a slower level 2 charger if you're only going to be somewhere for an hour or so. One hotel's level 2 charger was inoperative, while their Tesla charger might have worked (no Tesla Tap in our trunk yet). A semi-regular destination hotel has a few Level 2 chargers, upgraded after we stayed there in 2019 and had issues with their obsolete chargers. They put in new chargers which we discovered when we returned in 2021. Sounds great, right? Except they are only 5.3kW. Plugging in at 10% didn't give us a full charge by morning.

This was recently reinforced as we plan a trip to a state park with our son and his family, and decide whether to take the Mach-E or the F-150. Considered cost, considered time to get there (11 hour trip, with stops, in F-150, add at least 2 hours with the Mach-E). Then I started looking at charging opportunities at the destination. There's several DC chargers within 30 minutes or less, but the park has an EV charger. That's where PlugShare comes in, and I realize that the charger is a Level 1 charger, putting out a whopping 1.8kW of pure, raw power powered by 120v. Do the math - with a 10% loss in efficiency, that's 1.62kW. Take the 88kW battery, arrive with 20%, and go to 100% to leave. 88 x .8 = 70.4. 70.4 / 1.62 = 43.5 hours. Even if I didn't need the car every day, hogging the charger for 2 full days is pretty rude.

Luckily the campground has many RV sites, each with a nice 50 amp 14-50 outlet. I've gotten them to agree to let us use one as long as they have one open, even though we're going to be in a cabin. We'll use the portable charger and charge up overnight.

This reinforces to make sure you review your planned stops in PlugShare, and always check with your lodging destination as to what chargers exist, whether they operate, and what speed they operate at. Make sure you talk to someone knowledgeable (took us 4 attempts via email to get actual facts from the park office).

Technology is rapidly changing. Batteries, charging speeds, navigation and driving aids. The model of driving a vehicle into the ground is going to change for many as they realize they can cut a trip's duration significantly and charge less often in the years to come. I'm thinking we'll carefully watch technology for the next few years, and dump any current technology EV once the range doubles or the charging speed halves, or both.
Pretty much sums up early adoption. That said, Porsche/Audi/Hyundai/Kia are already killing it with 800V architecture and 10-80% charging in <20 mins. Range is coming too now that MB is 400+ and Lucid 500+. And, to your point, we won’t be keeping our 4X past the Options period because the latest and greatest will be much better in 2024.
 

JamieGeek

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Some of us are older, and have owned many cars over the years. For many of us, a standard ownership period was maybe 8 - 10 years, sometimes more, the idea of running the vehicle into the ground. We did that with many, but not all, of our vehicles. Traded in an old minivan during Cash for Clunkers in 2009, traded in a 15 year old Explorer to buy our 2013 F-150.

Decisions were easier. Am I happy with the vehicle's repair costs, operating costs, and appearance? Do I have the yearn for something new? And maybe, just maybe, is there some "new thing" that I have to have?

Now, with technology rapidly changing, that timeframe for many of us is going to get much shorter. I was already planning a new strategy as we entered retirement of owning new vehicles every few years, especially as we have access to Ford's A-Plan. The current market had me thinking of accelerating that, because of the combination of driving a newer vehicle coupled with making thousands in profits.

In our 8 months of charging experience, we came upon more than a handful of older Level 2 chargers, barely capable of charging the Mach-E from 10% to 100% overnight, such as at a hotel. We also realized that often it's not worth the trouble of finding a slower level 2 charger if you're only going to be somewhere for an hour or so. One hotel's level 2 charger was inoperative, while their Tesla charger might have worked (no Tesla Tap in our trunk yet). A semi-regular destination hotel has a few Level 2 chargers, upgraded after we stayed there in 2019 and had issues with their obsolete chargers. They put in new chargers which we discovered when we returned in 2021. Sounds great, right? Except they are only 5.3kW. Plugging in at 10% didn't give us a full charge by morning.

This was recently reinforced as we plan a trip to a state park with our son and his family, and decide whether to take the Mach-E or the F-150. Considered cost, considered time to get there (11 hour trip, with stops, in F-150, add at least 2 hours with the Mach-E). Then I started looking at charging opportunities at the destination. There's several DC chargers within 30 minutes or less, but the park has an EV charger. That's where PlugShare comes in, and I realize that the charger is a Level 1 charger, putting out a whopping 1.8kW of pure, raw power powered by 120v. Do the math - with a 10% loss in efficiency, that's 1.62kW. Take the 88kW battery, arrive with 20%, and go to 100% to leave. 88 x .8 = 70.4. 70.4 / 1.62 = 43.5 hours. Even if I didn't need the car every day, hogging the charger for 2 full days is pretty rude.

Luckily the campground has many RV sites, each with a nice 50 amp 14-50 outlet. I've gotten them to agree to let us use one as long as they have one open, even though we're going to be in a cabin. We'll use the portable charger and charge up overnight.

This reinforces to make sure you review your planned stops in PlugShare, and always check with your lodging destination as to what chargers exist, whether they operate, and what speed they operate at. Make sure you talk to someone knowledgeable (took us 4 attempts via email to get actual facts from the park office).

Technology is rapidly changing. Batteries, charging speeds, navigation and driving aids. The model of driving a vehicle into the ground is going to change for many as they realize they can cut a trip's duration significantly and charge less often in the years to come. I'm thinking we'll carefully watch technology for the next few years, and dump any current technology EV once the range doubles or the charging speed halves, or both.
Seems to me this lament is more about chargers than the vehicle itself.

Sure external factors can change your decision to keep the car or not but given that charging infrastructure is changing constantly (hopefully for the better) people might actually want to keep the car a little longer knowing that "next year I can go farther".

Granted I'm one to talk given that this is my 4th plugin in 9 years LOL.
 

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Technology is rapidly changing. Batteries, charging speeds, navigation and driving aids. The model of driving a vehicle into the ground is going to change for many as they realize they can cut a trip's duration significantly and charge less often in the years to come. I'm thinking we'll carefully watch technology for the next few years, and dump any current technology EV once the range doubles or the charging speed halves, or both.
Some of us, maybe, but not all. For me, the EV is a city car, for trips of no more than ~200 miles. I don't care about range and I don't care about charge speed. The Mustang is starting to grow on me, so I might keep it for many years - if it lasts that long. But I'll never drive it long distances.

My Lexus is now 24 years old, runs like new, and it may outlast both me and the Mustang.
 

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I can see it being an issue but most of your list seems to be an infrastructure issue. Hotels not having a charger will not be a huge deal or more so a hotel not being able to charge your car over night. The camp trip would not b e a huge deal if you could just fast charge near by.

As for the time it takes to charge. I will be honest I think most people massively over blow that. Add up the time it takes when you stop for gas/bathroom break. Total time from when you pull in until you leave. You will find it 20-30 mins easy if not longer. Add in small kids even longer. My wife and I even in a gas power car our stop would easily be 30 mins to account for gas, food, bathroom and that was rushing. Remember when gasing up your car you can not double up and do other items like you can when you charge.

Are we to this point yet no. Will we get there if we can get DC fast chargers to be less worry some hell yeah.
 
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RickMachE

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As for the time it takes to charge. I will be honest I think most people massively over blow that. Add up the time it takes when you stop for gas/bathroom break. Total time from when you pull in until you leave. You will find it 20-30 mins easy if not longer. Add in small kids even longer. My wife and I even in a gas power car our stop would easily be 30 mins to account for gas, food, bathroom and that was rushing. Remember when gasing up your car you can not double up and do other items like you can when you charge.
The time spent is not overblown. But it depends on the number of miles/hours per day you do on the road.

We drove from Michigan to Florida, over 2 days. We also drove Michigan to Massachusetts over 2 days. And we did Michigan to Florida with the F-150 over 2 days. I posted about it here: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ev-vs-ice-same-trip-how-much-time-does-charging-add.12604/

Summary: With the Mach-E, we drove for 23.45 hours total, including stops. 17.9 hours of actual driving. 5.55 hours of charging. With the F-150, we drove for 20.97 hours, including stops. 18.7 hours of actual driving. Mach-E was a faster trip, averaging 67.3mph vs. 63.5 with the F-150.

The incremental difference in total trip was 2.48 hours. The incremental difference in stop time was 5.55 - 2.27 = 3.28 hours. In other words, the Mach-E stop time was 144% more.

One thing few think of is that a bathroom stop on the highway is often in and out of a rest area that's on the highway. For many DC charging stops, you must depart the highway, drive a mile or more to a DC charging location, often going through 3 or more traffic lights, and then through the parking lot to the charger. It's not an overstatement for that to take 10 to 15 minute each way for each stop. So, a 30 minute charging stop could easily become 50 - 60 minutes.

Notes:

- kids are grown and out of the house.
- we almost never buy food on the road, we bring food with us. Stops are for bathrooms, and refueling when that's necessary. A normal bathroom stop would be 10 - 15 minutes.
 
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Blue highway

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For me there is a big difference between Want to keep it and Practical to keep it long term.

For me, in terms of if it's practical to keep it, I think the car will be ok for 10+ years in terms of reliability, battery degradation, and around town range. More chargers popping up to make 150 mile range easier to live with will help.

My assumptions are that EV power trains will be refined over time, but I don't think road trip charging 20-80% is going to fall significantly below 20 minutes any time soon for mainstream cars. Nor do I think range of more than 350 miles will be common because of weight and cost.

In terms of want to keep it, cool new tech and styling keeps coming and something may emerge the the MME can't do that I really want. A lot of this depends on how long the evergreen software updates keep coming.

If these assumptions are correct, I'll have the MME for a good long time, but it won't be my only EV.
 

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Only pushback to this argument is if you are using your EV entirely for local/suburban/city driving. If that is the case and you seldom drive over 100 miles a day and can plug in everynight at home, then I think you could keep your EV for 10 or 20 years and not really care too much about eventual battery degradation. For long trips, having an ICE/Hybrid makes sense for the next few years, but as EV tech and charging infrastructure improves, maybe in 2025 or so, 2 EV households will become more common
This is ME. I have and 2020 Honda Ridgeline that I use anytime my one way trip exceeds 80 miles (70 in the winter). I am HOPING to get 300K - 10-15 years our of my Ridgeline...and the same from my MME With any luck by then the technology will be mature enough that I no longer need to have an EV AND and ICE vehicle...
 

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It will take a while for a 100% EV to be a smarter long term buy than a PHEV. Give me a PHEV that has a fast charging 50kwh battery (at least 100 miles of EV range) and an Atkinson cycle engine and I'll be all set.

A PHEV is the safest bet for just about any commute.

Honestly the Toyota Rav 4 Prime is close to having my optimal drivetrain. Just need more battery and then some more power to go along with it.
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