Why owning any new EV today won't be a long-term ownership for many

[RickMachE]

I was going to replace my Fusion Plug-in Hybrid with a F-150 Lighting but I'm holding off. I think I'd rather have a Bronco Raptor or Ranger Raptor as my next daily driver... that is unless Ford comes out with F-150 Lighting Raptor!

Nice wish list! I don't think you'd have an easy time getting any of those before late 2023.

 

[Bmr4MachE]

Buy a used Chey Volt instead of that import.

Ha. I'd always choose to put my money on Toyota before GM. Anyway neither is what I want out of a PHEV.

 

[Mantastic]

My plan is to trade it in after a few years, in hopes that it will at minimum retain it's value in equity to what I still owe.

EVs, even outdated ones, have retained their value really well so far.

 

[ab13]

Yup.

4G in the Mach-E. 5G in the Lightning. Why the Mach-E doesn't have 5G in the 2022s I don't understand.

I would gather it is because licensing is a big spider web since the patents have to be licensed from the various companies that own them for 3G, 4G, and 5G technologies (around 50 companies). Ford is/was still in litigation with various companies, one linked below. So at the time of Mach E, I doubt they had any clear line for licensing 5G without great cost. More recently, licensing became a little simpler due to combined licensing models, in order to not have to deal with many separate companies. Based on reading just these two articles you can imaging at least one hundred lawsuits among the companies over the costs and how the tech is licensed.

http://www.fosspatents.com/2021/12/sisvel-becomes-third-avanci-licensee-to.html

http://www.fosspatents.com/2021/12/daimler-takes-avanci-patent-license-all.html

 

[ProfitOfTruth]

Case in point: I purchased an iPhone X over 4 years ago and, yes, iPhone technology has grown significantly, but my iPhone X still meets my needs.

Against my better judgement, I just upgraded my perfectly functional iPhone X to a 13 and the 13 does absolutely nothing the 10 couldn’t do just as well. Keep the X till it won’t boot up, you’re not missing anything. lol

 

[dtbaker61]

It will take a while for a 100% EV to be a smarter long term buy than a PHEV. Give me a PHEV that has a fast charging 50kwh battery (at least 100 miles of EV range) and an Atkinson cycle engine and I'll be all set.

A PHEV is the safest bet for just about any commute.

Honestly the Toyota Rav 4 Prime is close to having my optimal drivetrain. Just need more battery and then some more power to go along with it.

I gotta disagree, or at least ask for clarification on your reasons for thinking PHEV is a safer bet than BEV for any commute, especially one between 25-100 miles.

I would argue that a PHEV driver is even more likely to forget to put gas in the car than a BEV driver is to charge overnight.... and run out of gas if the commute total is longer than the PHEV range.

Secondly, long term, lets say after 50k-100k miles, the complexity of a PHEV means lots more maintenance and reliability issues after mid-life.

 

[Bmr4MachE]

I gotta disagree, or at least ask for clarification on your reasons for thinking PHEV is a safer bet than BEV for any commute, especially one between 25-100 miles.

I would argue that a PHEV driver is even more likely to forget to put gas in the car than a BEV driver is to charge overnight.... and run out of gas if the commute total is longer than the PHEV range.

Secondly, long term, lets say after 50k-100k miles, the complexity of a PHEV means lots more maintenance and reliability issues after mid-life.

You can always find gas and if you're in a rush you don't have time to charge. Until chargers are as frequent as gas stations AND can charge as quickly as I can pump a tank of gas pure EVs will always have that big disadvantage. Cold weather will also have less of an impact on available range. This is just facts.

Yes maintenance will be higher but the PHEV engine won't run very often if the driver plugs in.

I have been driving a Prius v non plugin for 4 years and maintenance is a joke. Barely have to do anything.

 

[dtbaker61]

You can always find gas and if you're in a rush you don't have time to charge. Until chargers are as frequent as gas stations AND can charge as quickly as I can pump a tank of gas pure EVs will always have that big disadvantage.

??? if you are talking about a commute, I would assume you would plug in either a PHEV or a BEV every night to start the day on a full charge.

I know from example that a PHEV owner may not even notice when their gasoline is getting low. My wife has a BMW 330e... which is a great vehicle, and we plug it in every night and recover 20+ mile range. I can tell you for a fact she forgets to get gasoline, and if she has a day over 40 miles is in a lot worse shape than me in a 200+ mile BEV. Between that, and the maintenance of a PHEV motor, I question your logic that PHEV is somehow 'safer'.

...I've been driving BEVs with a 40 mile range since 2008, so I dunno what you are worried about, unless your daily commute is over 150 miles ?! Induced 'range anxiety' is a red herring for most people most of the time...

What is your daily commute range ?
what's the problem if you charge at home every night?

 

[Bmr4MachE]

??? if you are talking about a commute, I would assume you would plug in either a PHEV or a BEV every night to start the day on a full charge.

I know from example that a PHEV owner may not even notice when their gasoline is getting low. My wife has a BMW 330e... which is a great vehicle, and we plug it in every night and recover 20+ mile range. I can tell you for a fact she forgets to get gasoline, and if she has a day over 40 miles is in a lot worse shape than me in a 200+ mile BEV. Between that, and the maintenance of a PHEV motor, I question your logic that PHEV is somehow 'safer'.

...I've been driving BEVs with a 40 mile range since 2008, so I dunno what you are worried about, unless your daily commute is over 150 miles ?! Induced 'range anxiety' is a red herring for most people most of the time...

What is your daily commute range ?
what's the problem if you charge at home every night?

I'm referring to not only a daily commute but all potential commutes. No need to plan a route based on chargers or add additional time with a PHEV. That's what I mean by safer bet.

 

[dtbaker61]

I'm referring to not only a daily commute but all potential commutes. No need to plan a route based on chargers or add additional time with a PHEV. That's what I mean by safer bet.

Sounds like you have a bad case of range anxiety....

Answer me this:
How many days per week/month/year do you drive more than 150 miles in one day?

...for all the days under 150 miles per day, I think you're set!
'commuting' to me means a day trip where you left home, and return home, and can charge your BEV in the comfort of your own garage overnight. You won't have to remember to buy gas, or go out of your way to find the best price at some gas station... ever... or deal with any of the maintenance of an ICE engine... ever... That sounds like a better bet to me; especially now with oil back up $100/bbl

 

[RickMachE]

I agree with @Bmr4MachE. We owned a PHEV for 3 years. Not thinking about range, and stops, was nice. However, the all-electric range was pitiful (21 miles at best), and the trunk was non-existent due to battery space.

In my ideal world, we'd have one BEV like the Mach-E, and a PHEV F-150 with 100 miles of electric range and good EV mileage on the highway, and a combined range of 400+ miles. Going to an all-BEV situation is not as attractive to us as having one BEV and one PHEV, but we need adequate electric and overall range. An Explorer PHEV might be interesting, but Ford's European model has a paltry 29 miles of electric range. Seems like the US will get the Explorer BEV in 2023.

We may end up with 3 vehicles, one of which is the 2013 F-150 used for hauling and trips when charging is a challenge.

 

[Bmr4MachE]

I agree with @Bmr4MachE. We owned a PHEV for 3 years. Not thinking about range, and stops, was nice. However, the all-electric range was pitiful (21 miles at best), and the trunk was non-existent due to battery space.

In my ideal world, we'd have one BEV like the Mach-E, and a PHEV F-150 with 100 miles of electric range and good EV mileage on the highway, and a combined range of 400+ miles. Going to an all-BEV situation is not as attractive to us as having one BEV and one PHEV, but we need adequate electric and overall range. An Explorer PHEV might be interesting, but Ford's European model has a paltry 29 miles of electric range. Seems like the US will get the Explorer BEV in 2023.

We may end up with 3 vehicles, one of which is the 2013 F-150 used for hauling and trips when charging is a challenge.

We currently have a MME and a Maverick Hybrid on order. If a PHEV Maverick comes out I will immediately put my order in for it.

But like I mentioned before a PHEV with a 50kwh battery is my dream vehicle. Not sure when that will happen though.

 

[Tangible]

At my age keeping a car 8-10 years (or minimum 3 via lease) means that may be my last car. When it comes to technology I want the latest and greatest life has to offer as long as I'm able to drive, and if it means trading the car in every 1-2 years, so be it.

Indeed. At 75, I'm expecting no more than 10 more years as a driver, and possibly less. (It will be my decision, because even if my kids take my keys away, they don't know about PAAK. Which may actually work by then.)

My hope for a long time has been that Level 5 self-driving will arrive before that time comes, allowing me to stay independent. Until then, I expect to keep my cars only until the next generation has meaningful improvements (the car, not my kids). For EVs, that should be only 2-3 years.

Range is not a big issue for me, nor is away-from-home charging. I would love to see 5-passenger capability including a rear seat wide enough for two child seats for grandkids plus an adult. The MME is too small for that. Much better voice control of all car systems, to avoid the distraction of pecking at menus. Vented seats. Self-parking in tight garages, forward and back. Video side view in place of mirrors. And...??

 

[JSeis]

The average vehicle ownership period is 12 years in the US. Most can only afford used cars because not many young families can drop 100 Gs on two vehicles much less a house. The Maverick is getting the looks because of price and until BEVs get sub 30K affordable, I don’t see mainstream and even then most more well heeled boomers (like us) can really make do with 1 car and also do any thing we want because of income/retirement.

I grew up with plug & point gapping, condenser burning, auto choked, 2000 mile oil changing ice engines and I don’t miss them (I’ve a few legacy ones for old times sake). I’ve a half dozen? old iPhones that still work w/wireless & Bluetooth. I’m not too worried about advancing tech in 5 years and our MME is absolutely rocking efficient for our limited driving… when truly retired. Until then I’ll drive the pants off it and really see if it can have some potential as a legacy BEV in 5 years and 125,000 miles later. My 9N Ford is 81 years old. 4 banger with points, plugs, etc. and that’s legacy.. maybe battery packs will be like engines… affordable. Maybe electric motors simply last for 300-400K miles. Maybe that damned FOB is a priceless legacy key that never fails. Maybe the tech can give us controls for climate outside the screen. Though it’s smart to button them separately.

I’d like to think some BEVs could roll big miles with limited parts to wear out and have secure software that could get a wireless bump every now and then. The MME saves us annually over $3000 net in fuel costs so say $20K in 10 years is decent offset w/charge at home and an efficient SUV knock about grocery getter that still works. Then again 3 dudes went to the moon 50 years ago with 60’s tech. I think we’ve a chance.

 

[Eagertrader]

I own a 2007 Toyota Avalon that never gave me any trouble and still runs like when new, thus a keeper. I do plan to keep the MME GT for a long time as well, and as technology evolves I wonder that if 8 to 10 years from now third party vendors, or maybe even Ford may offer Solid State replacement batteries that may even triple or quadruple the range. That would be worth replacing.