Why the Mustang Mach E is better than the Tesla Model Y

dbsb3233

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This is my biggest concern, buying now instead of waiting another 3-6 months or so. The newest proposal will allow people to take $7k off at time of purchase.
Ironically, the fact they even floated the idea is likely hurting Tesla sales this year. Who wants to buy now if it sounds like they might force other taxpayers to cough up $7k on the same purchase later in the year, or next year?

This is what happens when government manipulates the market with such huge taxpayer subsidies.
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Ironically, the fact they even floated the idea is likely hurting Tesla sales this year. Who wants to buy now if it sounds like they might force other taxpayers to cough up $7k on the same purchase later in the year, or next year?

This is what happens when government manipulates the market with such huge taxpayer subsidies.
Im sure Tesla will gladly take the short term pain if it means getting another round of credits.
 

DBC

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You're right, I don't think they're thinking about what's fair to manufacturers either.
Capping the credits per manufacturer was always a bad idea. It just let some manufacturers sit back and wait for costs to drop before bringing vehicles to market. The result is that there was an incentive to wait, which wasn't the goal. In fact, rather than capping the credits, it would have been a good idea to INCREASE the credits with more units sold and put an end date on the whole endeavor.

Would have also worked better to have made the credits payments and to have the manufacturers administer the payments. Having it work as a tax credit just made a load of work for the IRS and opened the door to a lot of fraudulent claims.
 

dbsb3233

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The result is that there was an incentive to wait, which wasn't the goal.
The incentive to wait had nothing to do with the tax credit. It had to do with batteries finally getting good enough to make mass market BEVs with enough range for mainstream buyers.
 


timbop

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Capping the credits per manufacturer was always a bad idea. It just let some manufacturers sit back and wait for costs to drop before bringing vehicles to market. The result is that there was an incentive to wait, which wasn't the goal. In fact, rather than capping the credits, it would have been a good idea to INCREASE the credits with more units sold and put an end date on the whole endeavor.

Would have also worked better to have made the credits payments and to have the manufacturers administer the payments. Having it work as a tax credit just made a load of work for the IRS and opened the door to a lot of fraudulent claims.
The point of the 200k cap is to help subsidize the development of desirable BEVs. That allowed Chevy and Tesla to indirectly get back some of their R&D costs (they charged more than they would have for the cars), while still allowing others to enter the BEV market the same way. What you propose would essentially inhibit competition - Tesla and Chevy getting MORE of a payback over time would essentially block Ford and others who are newer to the game.

Eventually it will be a level playing field (pricing AND experience building BEVs) without subsidies.
 

Alan

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I'm new here, and hope you will forgive me jumping in without reading all 70 pages first. I had a 2014 BMW i3 that was 5 years old with a $16K book value when the AC died. The repair quote was $23K (as in 23 THOUSAND dollars) which reduced my i3 to a salvage value of $8K. I quickly picked up a LEAF to hold me over until the Tesla Y came out.

About a year later I got an opportunity to test drive a MY and decided I did not want it, and then decided to wait for the ME. With that background, here are my two biggest reasons I didn't want to buy a MY. First, the turning circle is HORRIBLE. I had a Sienna minivan with longer wheelbase and wider stance and FWD that had a tighter turn radius, and it was one of the things I like least about the minivan. The ME is better, and good enough, but not much better than the Sienna. Two, the MY rear vision through the center rear view mirror is terrible. A small car pulled up behind one at a light could be invisible in the mirror, and I didn't intend to keep the camera on all the time taking up that much real estate on the center screen.

My ME First Ed (Grabber Blue/Black) is expected in this week!
 

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The incentive to wait had nothing to do with the tax credit. It had to do with batteries finally getting good enough to make mass market BEVs with enough range for mainstream buyers.
Batteries don't get good enough until manufacturers demand better batteries. And if the issue is range and the barrier to range is battery cost, then more subsidies mean more range.

The point of the 200k cap is to help subsidize the development of desirable BEVs. That allowed Chevy and Tesla to indirectly get back some of their R&D costs (they charged more than they would have for the cars), while still allowing others to enter the BEV market the same way. What you propose would essentially inhibit competition - Tesla and Chevy getting MORE of a payback over time would essentially block Ford and others who are newer to the game.
The other manufacturers also got the benefit of GM's and Tesla's R&D along with the benefit of the R&D done by their suppliers. Classic free rider problem. Stand around and let someone else to the heavy lifting.

The fear of being blocked would have been an incentive for doing more things sooner in order to avoid being "blocked". (How much of a disadvantage depends on how long you wait, how much you sell, and the size of the disadvantage).

I think you mean Tesla? Yes Tesla almost went bankrupt. The bail out was likely more important than the tax credits, but the tax credits didn't hurt ($7500 credit for a $100K car isn't the same as a $7500 credit for a $40K car).
 

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About a year later I got an opportunity to test drive a MY and decided I did not want it, and then decided to wait for the ME. With that background, here are my two biggest reasons I didn't want to buy a MY. First, the turning circle is HORRIBLE. I had a Sienna minivan with longer wheelbase and wider stance and FWD that had a tighter turn radius, and it was one of the things I like least about the minivan. The ME is better, and good enough, but not much better than the Sienna. Two, the MY rear vision through the center rear view mirror is terrible. A small car pulled up behind one at a light could be invisible in the mirror, and I didn't intend to keep the camera on all the time taking up that much real estate on the center screen.

My ME First Ed (Grabber Blue/Black) is expected in this week!
These are the "little" things that are compromises with the design Tesla took. Their layout increases the turning radius. Their fixed headrest can't be moved. At least on the Mach E and most other vehicles you can remove and adjust the headrest. My vehicle has tilt down rear headrests.
 

dbsb3233

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Batteries don't get good enough until manufacturers demand better batteries. And if the issue is range and the barrier to range is battery cost, then more subsidies mean more range.
There was (and still is) plenty of demand for better batteries. And not just for automobiles. There's a massive demand for better battery technology, from industries across the spectrum. Power companies... tools... transportation... construction equipment... cell phones... etc etc etc.

Range (more specifically, energy density) and charging time are the big issues for EV batteries. And of course cost.

And sure, subsidies for ANYTHING lowers barriers. We could make that argument about everything from cars to food to TVs to paper clips. Whether we should be taking money from taxpayers to do so is a discussion for another forum though.
 

Orangefirefish

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And Tesla fans are going to buy them anyway, credit or not. $7K is a small percentage of a current tech employee’s salary. Folks in Washington are a bit clueless if they think that is going to somehow magically boost EV ownership... just a transfer of wealth from taxpayers to Tesla and/or buyers, depending on how Tesla changes the price.
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