Would you pay for a Tesla NACS retrofit?

[bpbailey]

“We’re going to ship an adapter to everyone who’s bought a Ford EV,” Farley said. “This is not just for the future, it’s for all the people who already bought our vehicles. So they’ll get an adapter from Ford, they go on FordPass, they pick the payment option they want, all the billing is the same as it is today, so it’s going to be super easy.”

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[AZBill]

If they can build an adapter they can integrate an adapter into the charge port assembly.

It is more than that if you alos want AC charging via the same connector. Magic Dock only works for DC charging. The Tesla Tap only works for AC charging. The car would have to have different wiring and contactor setup to work for both. No way you can put those contactors inside an adapter.

 

[locks66]

No, I'd need an adapter either way, if Tesla keeps rolling out their CCS retrofits (something definitely in doubt now) CCS would be the more universal port anyways.

They still have to do this to get their federal government money. Honestly though, let tesla have the W and if Ford is willing to do this (Which I never thought any maker would) let them set a precedent for the rest of legacy automakers and get us all on one plug.

People are scared of EVs already because of the learning curve. Adding different ports doesn't help.

The number of times I have to tell people at fast charging stations they are using the wrong speed charger for their car is already super high.

 

[Keeperofthe7keys]

They still have to do this to get their federal government money. Honestly though, let tesla have the W and if Ford is willing to do this (Which I never thought any maker would) let them set a precedent for the rest of legacy automakers and get us all on one plug.

People are scared of EVs already because of the learning curve. Adding different ports doesn't help.

The number of times I have to tell people at fast charging stations they are using the wrong speed charger for their car is already super high.

Yeah, except we already were on one plug, Tesla was the holdout that was already moving to adopt CCS, but now Ford has moved us back in the direction of having multiple plugs.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

Yeah, except we already were on one plug, Tesla was the holdout that was already moving to adopt CCS, but now Ford has moved us back in the direction of having multiple plugs.

We never had just one plug. Originally it was ChAdeMO and CCS, with Tesla doing their own thing. That was a big deal because for a few years your EV options were pretty much a Nissan Leaf (CHAdeMO) or Tesla. CHAdeMO fell by the wayside (although you can still find some DC fast chargers with this connector type) and we were on track for CCS-1 to be the one plug for the country. But look at it this way: there are something like 1.7 million electric vehicles in the USA Today (difficult to find this number as most want to give the number including plug-in hybrids), and one site I found noted that Teslas make up something like 65% of that. Tesla's lead in sales may be shrinking as a percentage, but they also continue to dominate in total production numbers. In other words, that is a significant number of vehicles with a non-CCS port. It would be like saying that we're going to phase out standard gas and make diesel the standard fuel type, ignoring the fact that vehicles using standard fuel dramatically outnumber those bearing diesel engines. (And at least electric vehicles have the option of adapters!)

I don't mean to advocate for the idea that a standard should be set just because one company was first and got their product out in larger numbers than many others. Ideally it would be based on technical merits. I've tried to do a bit of reading about this and there's a lot of opinions floating around; I've read that the CCS standard allows for more power transfer than the Tesla standard, and then I've also read that NACS only refers to the physical port and can still utilize the CCS protocol... so I really don't know. If we're just talking physical plug, NACS seems much more user-friendly than the CCS plug.

This is an area where it would be nice to have some sort of mandate from the government. Warring standards will hurt EV adoption in multiple ways. Aside from making customers nervous, why would anyone want to install EV charging equipment if it's going to become obsolete in well under a decade? I'm mostly thinking about businesses, but that applies to private homes, too. And didn't Ford just dictate that their dealerships who will sell EVs need to install fast chargers? I'm sure the dealerships are thrilled with the prospect of needing to spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on this equipment, only to have to swap it out again soon to change the plug type (if not more).

 

[Nikos]

We never had just one plug. Originally it was ChAdeMO and CCS, with Tesla doing their own thing. That was a big deal because for a few years your EV options were pretty much a Nissan Leaf (CHAdeMO) or Tesla. CHAdeMO fell by the wayside (although you can still find some DC fast chargers with this connector type) and we were on track for CCS-1 to be the one plug for the country. But look at it this way: there are something like 1.7 million electric vehicles in the USA Today (difficult to find this number as most want to give the number including plug-in hybrids), and one site I found noted that Teslas make up something like 65% of that. Tesla's lead in sales may be shrinking as a percentage, but they also continue to dominate in total production numbers. In other words, that is a significant number of vehicles with a non-CCS port. It would be like saying that we're going to phase out standard gas and make diesel the standard fuel type, ignoring the fact that vehicles using standard fuel dramatically outnumber those bearing diesel engines. (And at least electric vehicles have the option of adapters!)

I don't mean to advocate for the idea that a standard should be set just because one company was first and got their product out in larger numbers than many others. Ideally it would be based on technical merits. I've tried to do a bit of reading about this and there's a lot of opinions floating around; I've read that the CCS standard allows for more power transfer than the Tesla standard, and then I've also read that NACS only refers to the physical port and can still utilize the CCS protocol... so I really don't know. If we're just talking physical plug, NACS seems much more user-friendly than the CCS plug.

This is an area where it would be nice to have some sort of mandate from the government. Warring standards will hurt EV adoption in multiple ways. Aside from making customers nervous, why would anyone want to install EV charging equipment if it's going to become obsolete in well under a decade? I'm mostly thinking about businesses, but that applies to private homes, too. And didn't Ford just dictate that their dealerships who will sell EVs need to install fast chargers? I'm sure the dealerships are thrilled with the prospect of needing to spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on this equipment, only to have to swap it out again soon to change the plug type (if not more).

All these are good points. Everyone in this conversation have described good points.
But......again let me describe my own experience with EA and CCS. Traveling on holidays is a hassle using EA and CCS.
Here, in the SE...EA has been a disappointing experience. CCS is not living up to its reputation. Slow, slow charge rates out of " supposedly hyper fast stations ", have left me yearning for something else. Unfortunately, nothing is available nearby, other than Tesla superchargers. I am ready to try the Tesla experience.
I dread my travels with my camper when I have to wait for an hour for my turn and another hour to charge or more. Preplanning my trips, 24 hours ahead, I haven't found all the stations along my route to be operational. Then, I am looking at Tesla's network, nearby, with a dozen or more stalls working just fine.
So....again....my experience......CCS, NACS, or something else would only convert me over to it, if I get the advertised charging rate, speed and reliability, then I will use the Tesla NACS. EA, give me something faster, like you used to, and I may stick around a bit longer.
I am NACS ready. First part of 2024, it seems just another long wait. But I waited 14 months for my Mach E and my Lightning, so 6-8 months, sounds like a reasonable time.

 

[khbkhb]

Many interesting views elided ....
For us, it is way too soon to tell. We virtually never use fast charging, and our J1722 home chargers (Wallbox) suffice. If/when our usage pattern changes to make fast charging attractive|necessary it will depend on:

1. Availability of CCS vs Tesla on our route(s)
2. Cost of the retrofit
3. Performance of the retrofit (one can imagine that Ford might make more extensive changes than just the minimal connector adjustments)
4. If it is part of some future battery upgrade/replacement

I'm cautiously optimistic that this is a GoodThing, the Tesla connector approach seems better to me than CCS (and both better than CHAdeMO), the existing Tesla network appears to be better maintained than any of the primarily CCS based systems, and etc.

We also have a Leaf, Nissan has never seemed interested in providing an upgrade path to something more useful/standard (in the US) than CHAdeMO; but since we typically keep our cars for more than a decade, I figure we'll get our money's worth from our Wallbox chargers.

Assuming Ford provides converters, for a reasonable fee (or if Tesla's network has them at every charge station) and are reliable, I don't think I could ask more of Ford.

 

[Gilles]

In Toronto, we have seven supercharger sites, most with 16 to 20 plugs. Having few sites with many plugs makes it easier to find one available. Many condo towers and rental buildings do not have chargers (or only have a few). That is one reason we see so many Tesla 3 and Y. Giving access to these superchargers to MME will greatly help sales in Toronto.
I have an MME but also live in a house with a level 2 plug, so it does not apply to me.

 

[HuntingPudel]

<SNIP>
I don't mean to advocate for the idea that a standard should be set just because one company was first and got their product out in larger numbers than many others. Ideally it would be based on technical merits.
<SNIP>
This is an area where it would be nice to have some sort of mandate from the government.
<SNIP>

The CCS interface is a standards-driven interface and the Tesla interface is an de-facto standard. Tesla obviously went with theirs because they thought it was a better idea. The EU saw things differently and put directives in place forcing Tesla to use CCS2. The US and Canada have not gone this far to force one over the other. I feel like they should as well (or should have waaaaay back when), but there are those who don’t.

 

[kodiakng]

if folks need one, here is a good guide to all of the primary EVSE connectors and geographic regions they are used in:

https://www.versinetic.com/news-blog/ev-charging-connector-types-guide/

note that the tesla/NACS one is the only one that uses the same pins for AC or DC depending on the EVSE (level 1/2 vs level 3) in use. that brings in an additional issue of how to make the appropriate connections inside the vehicle to either the on-board charger (converts AC to DC) or direct to the battery system (DCFC/level 3).

tesla has a good description of this issue here:

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/deliver...-Charging-Standard-AC-DC-Pin-Sharing-Appendix

the idea of a "Tesla NACS retrofit" is a non-starter in general but it is also useful to know why.

 

[Mirak]

Sooo… back to the original question. It really boils down to one thing.

Assuming the retrofit was possible and affordable (probably no to both, but this is just hypothetical), then you have to decide if you would rather have NACS or CCS be your default charging option.

Where I live in the Midwest, defaulting to Superchargers makes no sense. I suspect it makes even less sense to do so in Tesla-saturated markets. It’s great to have the Superchargers available as a backup, but why would you want to default to stations which are more likely to be full?

 

[Deleted member 16048]

Sooo… back to the original question. It really boils down to one thing.

Assuming the retrofit was possible and affordable (probably no to both, but this is just hypothetical), then you have to decide if you would rather have NACS or CCS be your default charging option.

Where I live in the Midwest, defaulting to Superchargers makes no sense. I suspect it makes even less sense to do so in Tesla-saturated markets. It’s great to have the Superchargers available as a backup, but why would you want to default to stations which are more likely to be full?

This is how I feel about the SuperCharger network here in Minnesota. It isn't really a default option situation for me in every day driving (When I need to actually fast charge in a day.)

Even CCS fast chargers are not in the area really, but I would probably use those first. Now for road trips, I would probably use SuperChargers much much more due to their reliability.

 

[RRM_GT]

Not in PA. You just pay the tolls. You do have to have an account with EZ Pass and have a balance on the account to cover tolls. You can also link a credit card to the account for auto replenishment. We also have toll-by-plate, but I think it’s more expensive.

Actually in PA you pay $3 per year for each transponder. Still better than $12 a yr.

 

[Garbone]

One thing not mentioned is the cost of the manufacturer of NACs -vs-CCS. If the interfaces for the next gen Fords are already being redesigned at a cost and if converting to NACS has a smaller design footprint and allows better flexibility and saves Ford $$ per unit built in addition to better reliability and adding 12k plus DCFC chargers to the network it would be nuts for Ford to stick with CCS.

Honestly, Electrify America as the future of charging?

 

[buzznwood]

Is the difference literally just a physical connector difference? If so, people like me would be able to keep their existing charging station and just get a new cable/coupler.

You will be able to keep you existing home charging as you are just using AC charging at home so can just use an adapter as plenty of people already do. I keep a Tesla mobile charger instead of the ford one in the trunk of my mach-e as it offers a better selection on plugs I can use so I also have an adapter for Tesla to CCS, like wise I have a CCS to Tesla adapter sitting in a drawer so when friends that have a Tesla come over then can charge in case they forget theirs.

As you are not using the DC pins at the bottom the adapters are not that bulky As it is really only the additional DC pins at the bottom that makes the CCS larger. The CCS.2 connector is actually a little larger compared to NA CCS.1 so its not like Tesla doesn't magically have a smaller area behind charge port cover as they need to support CCS.2 on the euro models.

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