Dealer sold my reserved car

[Malacandra]

Welllllll so far I've opened a complaint case with Ford Customer Service. I left reviews on whatever review sites I could find. I filed a complaint with the CA Dept of Consumer Affairs. I emailed a bunch of Ford execs whose email addresses were online.

Will report back if anything happens.

In the meantime... I've been looking at other EVs :`(

Don't forget the Better Business Bureau!

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[Avelli]

I do not think this is correct, unless you signed an agreement with the dealer that states you have the first right of refusal. I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the documents I signed, and nothing on the Ford website is relevant. What is relevant is what the dealer agrees to give you.

And my take is that the contract was implied; However, reading through it again, it looks like it is not a vehicle deposit, per se, but rather a brokerage agreement to purchase a vehicle. The key here is what exactly is the definition of that initial $500, what are the entitlements, and what the consumer protections are in place.

OP, you can demand your $500 back today (in writing, please!). If they fail to do that, the dealer is in violation of CVC 11736 (c)

It is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any of the following when brokering a retail sale:

(c) Fail to refund any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer at any time prior to the consumer's signing of a vehicle purchase agreement with a selling dealer and taking delivery of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.

I hope the OP is able to blast this out to the world, and put this dealer (and all dealers) on notice.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and the market on new cars dropped like a stone, would you expect the dealer to let you back out of an ordered car without losing your deposit? The dealer would pitch a fit and threaten you, no doubt.

 

[mkhuffman]

And my take is that the contract was implied; However, reading through it again, it looks like it is not a vehicle deposit, per se, but rather a brokerage agreement to purchase a vehicle. The key here is what exactly is the definition of that initial $500, what are the entitlements, and what the consumer protections are in place.

Offer, acceptance and consideration are required for a contract to exist. When you provide a deposit on the Ford site, there is no offer or acceptance with the dealer. The site is run by Ford.

On the other hand if you have a agreement with the dealer that outlines all the terms of the offer, and it is accepted with signatures, and consideration is paid with a deposit, I think you have a contract. People who have a car they think is on order but don't have a signed agreement that documents the agreed OTD price don't have anything even closely resembling a contract, implied or not. IMO.

 

[RedDeadRegen]

Offer, acceptance and consideration are required for a contract to exist. When you provide a deposit on the Ford site, there is no offer or acceptance with the dealer. The site is run by Ford.

On the other hand if you have a agreement with the dealer that outlines all the terms of the offer, and it is accepted with signatures, and consideration is paid with a deposit, I think you have a contract. People who have a car they think is on order but don't have a signed agreement that documents the agreed OTD price don't have anything even closely resembling a contract, implied or not. IMO.

I believe that the second status after "order confirmed" explicitly say "order accepted by dealer"

I'll leave it to the lawyers to explain "accepted doesn't mean accepted, here's why"

 

[mkhuffman]

I believe that the second status after "order confirmed" explicitly say "order accepted by dealer"

I'll leave it to the lawyers to explain "accepted doesn't mean accepted, here's why"

I am not an attorney, but I think it is pretty clear that there is no agreement between the buyer and the seller. In this case the buyer is submitting and order request via a Ford web site, but Ford is not the seller. The dealer is. So the buyer is not making an offer to a dealer. Ford passes it to the dealer, but Ford chooses the dealer and you have not made any offer to them. Ford did it. It is initiating the process, and it is not a contract. You have to do that directly with the dealer.

The buyer is agreeing to pay Ford's costs, which are MSRP and delivery fees. There is no mention of other fees that the dealer may charge, so even if you can argue the offer is accepted by the dealer, it is incomplete. They only agreed to sell you a car, but there is no agreement on the final price.

All dealers have extra fees and there are government fees you have to pay as well. There is no way you can say the agreement on the web site constitutes an offer because it is incomplete. Only until the dealer provides you with an offer to sell you a car, and you accept it, only then it is complete.

Questionable (I won't say shady) dealers will avoid giving you a complete offer that you can accept because they don't want to be tied into an agreement that they may want to change later. Six months is a long time, and their fees may change in that time. So they put it off. Or maybe they fully intend to add ADM and maybe their processing fees are outrageous, and they don't want you to know when it is easier for you to change your mind.

That is dishonest, IMO, and why I think you should not let it happen. Get a signed agreement when you are first placing your order, and you will be protected. That doesn't mean dealers won't break a contract, but I think it is a contract and you have legal recourse. And Ford may help you in that situation.

 

[jlauro]

I am not an attorney, but I think it is pretty clear that there is no agreement between the buyer and the seller. In this case the buyer is submitting and order request via a Ford web site, but Ford is not the seller. The dealer is. So the buyer is not making an offer to a dealer. Ford passes it to the dealer, but Ford chooses the dealer and you have not made any offer to them. Ford did it. It is initiating the process, and it is not a contract. You have to do that directly with the dealer.

The buyer is agreeing to pay Ford's costs, which are MSRP and delivery fees. There is no mention of other fees that the dealer may charge, so even if you can argue the offer is accepted by the dealer, it is incomplete. They only agreed to sell you a car, but there is no agreement on the final price.

That is not how it works. If there is extra ADM fees, the dealer registers those on Ford's website and the buyer see them when the select the dealer. When you order from Ford's website, the buyer selects the dealer, not Ford.

The dealer than has to accept it and convert it to an order. The dealer can decline to do that, but in this case the dealer did accept the order.

 

[TonyaE]

This online ordering business with Ford is a gray area. When you pick your dealer, order is sent to the dealer, dealer can accept decline at Fords MSRP. Customer should be able to see any additional fees added by the dealer, then should be able to accept or decline, and then make a deposit. Maybe dealer accepting order should come before deposit?

 

[mkhuffman]

That is not how it works. If there is extra ADM fees, the dealer registers those on Ford's website and the buyer see them when the select the dealer. When you order from Ford's website, the buyer selects the dealer, not Ford.

The dealer than has to accept it and convert it to an order. The dealer can decline to do that, but in this case the dealer did accept the order.

But all they did is agree to sell you a car. They didn't agree to do it without any processing fees or ADM.

I have not seen the dealer and ADM list on Ford's web site, so that is news to me. It wasn't there when I purchased my car, so maybe it is new? Can you point me to that website?

 

[Regularmache]

Welllllll so far I've opened a complaint case with Ford Customer Service. I left reviews on whatever review sites I could find. I filed a complaint with the CA Dept of Consumer Affairs. I emailed a bunch of Ford execs whose email addresses were online.

Will report back if anything happens.

In the meantime... I've been looking at other EVs :`(

At the very least your dealer Misrepresented your deal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sfvbareferral.com/how-to-sue-a-car-dealer-for-misrepresentation/?amp

 

[jlauro]

But all they did is agree to sell you a car. They didn't agree to do it without any processing fees or ADM.

I have not seen the dealer and ADM list on Ford's web site, so that is news to me. It wasn't there when I purchased my car, so maybe it is new? Can you point me to that website?

The site is ford.com.

That is how it's always been. I would walk you through it, but the order bank is closed right now. The first thing you did before picking any options was to select the dealer. It would guide you through the pricing and the final page right before you put down the deposit would include the price including any ADM. The ADM wasn't spelled out, but you could see the different starting prices before selecting any options, so you would have to go back a couple pages and pick a different dealer, but it was rather clear the differences in ADM.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

Can’t compare supply and demand of commodities, necessities and intangibles to…… cars.

The guy I was responding to said "If people are willing to pay more for something by definition the price is too low." He spoke very generally using the term "something" instead of "cars." In that context, it's fair to discuss anything.

But I like to bring up healthcare because it shows just how shortsighted the supply and demand economics arguments are when they talk about the power that the consumer has. The consumer's ultimate power is the ability to walk away from the deal. What do you do when you can't walk away from it?

In the car market, if demand outstrips supply, the price is too low.

If you're in accounting, then yes - you're leaving money on the table. Price it as high as you can to still sell everything, and back down when you're finding that inventory is piling up. But if demand is outstripping supply, there's more than price that factors into it.

It's call "competition". As long as you can compare prices, and decide who you want to save your arm, you will not be paying more than the service is worth. But that said, you do have a limit, right? What if you could set your own arm in a cast and didn't need a doctor? What if your neighbor would do it since you cannot afford to pay the doctor? There are always alternatives, as we are allowed to have them of course. Even for medical costs, there are limits to what people will, and can, pay, because they can take another path rather than pay a doctor their annual salary to fix their broken arm.

Nobody would pay 100x more for water or electricity if they have a choice. That is the key: choice. It is the same with cars. You have a choice. You can pay ADM or you can buy another car, or choose another dealer.

I can generate my own electricity with solar, or with a NG generator. I will cancel my power company service if they increase the price by 100x. Same with water. I will drill a well in my backyard and pump my own water if they decide to increase the price by 100x.

So you are simply wrong. There is definitely a maximum price people will pay the power and water companies. Without a shadow of a doubt. And no, society will not grind to a halt. The power and water companies will go out of business, and we will get new business that understand that we really do have choices and there really are maximum prices people are willing to pay.

Not sure how strict the mods will be with this - instead of giving a line by line reply (because I do enjoy the discussion but don't want to go too far off-topic for this thread), I would not that you said I am wrong, but you have very conveniently chosen scenarios that suit you. Putting your own arm in a cast? Drilling a well in your yard, or getting solar? What if you're in an emergency department and the blood supply to your arm has been severed, you have just a few minutes to make the choice about saving it or needing an amputation - so much for choice (to make it doubly fun, imagine you're unconscious and panicked family is being asked to sign the consent). As to utilities, what if you live in an apartment in the city (as the majority of the country does, assuming you're with me in the USA) and have no roof access to set up a rain barrel or solar panels? Get up and move somewhere else - but that takes resources to do, and if the economic reports are to be believed, the overwhelming majority of the country does not have the resources to do that. Running water and electricity may not be essential to simply live, but they're practically requirements to be a functioning part of modern society. If utilities wanted to they absolutely could put the squeeze on people, just as many landlords and rental agencies are doing, and so much income going to rent is having detrimental effects on people's purchasing power and savings. There's a reason why utility costs are regulated.

This may be the root of your misunderstanding. You need to learn about basic economics, and then you will understand how it works.

I know about basic economics. I also know that a lot of other people know a similar amount as I do, yet treat it like some law of nature, or something to be revered. As I mentioned above, I like to bring up healthcare because it reveals the flaws in much of that thinking. Healthcare isn't the only industry to do that, but it is an industry that people can more easily visualize and understand. Supply and demand, competition, pricing based on what the market will bear... I'm not trying to say that those are incorrect concepts, but they never applied perfectly to everything, and "the market" today (and what is demanded by modern life) has become infinitely more complex than it was back when those theories were crafted.

 

[Mach1E]

The guy I was responding to said "If people are willing to pay more for something by definition the price is too low." He spoke very generally using the term "something" instead of "cars." In that context, it's fair to discuss anything.

But I like to bring up healthcare because it shows just how shortsighted the supply and demand economics arguments are when they talk about the power that the consumer has. The consumer's ultimate power is the ability to walk away from the deal. What do you do when you can't walk away from it?


If you're in accounting, then yes - you're leaving money on the table. Price it as high as you can to still sell everything, and back down when you're finding that inventory is piling up. But if demand is outstripping supply, there's more than price that factors into it.


Not sure how strict the mods will be with this - instead of giving a line by line reply (because I do enjoy the discussion but don't want to go too far off-topic for this thread), I would not that you said I am wrong, but you have very conveniently chosen scenarios that suit you. Putting your own arm in a cast? Drilling a well in your yard, or getting solar? What if you're in an emergency department and the blood supply to your arm has been severed, you have just a few minutes to make the choice about saving it or needing an amputation - so much for choice (to make it doubly fun, imagine you're unconscious and panicked family is being asked to sign the consent). As to utilities, what if you live in an apartment in the city (as the majority of the country does, assuming you're with me in the USA) and have no roof access to set up a rain barrel or solar panels? Get up and move somewhere else - but that takes resources to do, and if the economic reports are to be believed, the overwhelming majority of the country does not have the resources to do that. Running water and electricity may not be essential to simply live, but they're practically requirements to be a functioning part of modern society. If utilities wanted to they absolutely could put the squeeze on people, just as many landlords and rental agencies are doing, and so much income going to rent is having detrimental effects on people's purchasing power and savings. There's a reason why utility costs are regulated.


I know about basic economics. I also know that a lot of other people know a similar amount as I do, yet treat it like some law of nature, or something to be revered. As I mentioned above, I like to bring up healthcare because it reveals the flaws in much of that thinking. Healthcare isn't the only industry to do that, but it is an industry that people can more easily visualize and understand. Supply and demand, competition, pricing based on what the market will bear... I'm not trying to say that those are incorrect concepts, but they never applied perfectly to everything, and "the market" today (and what is demanded by modern life) has become infinitely more complex than it was back when those theories were crafted.

While you are saying things that are true, they’re completely off-topic.

We are talking about the economics of the auto industry. Any points made about the economics of other industries don’t really help the discussion (other than to disprove the use of the hyperbolic word “something”).

 

[mkhuffman]

The site is ford.com.

That is how it's always been. I would walk you through it, but the order bank is closed right now. The first thing you did before picking any options was to select the dealer. It would guide you through the pricing and the final page right before you put down the deposit would include the price including any ADM. The ADM wasn't spelled out, but you could see the different starting prices before selecting any options, so you would have to go back a couple pages and pick a different dealer, but it was rather clear the differences in ADM.

It definitely didn't do that when I placed my order request on line, so that must be new. Nothing told me how much the processing fees would be, or title and taxes. There was nothing about paint protection or fabric protection. I guess you saw all those when you placed your order?

I also wanted X-Plan pricing and there was no way to specify that when I placed my order request with Ford, but I suppose it gave you the opportunity to select special pricing programs like X-Plan? And how do you know the price differences were due to ADM when it didn't tell you that?

 

[Mach1E]

It definitely didn't do that when I placed my order request on line, so that must be new. Nothing told me how much the processing fees would be, or title and taxes. There was nothing about paint protection or fabric protection. I guess you saw all those when you placed your order?

I also wanted X-Plan pricing and there was no way to specify that when I placed my order request with Ford, but I suppose it gave you the opportunity to select special pricing programs like X-Plan? And how do you know the price differences were due to ADM when it didn't tell you that?

Yup.

And the fine print on Ford.com also spells out that it’s not a contract and doesn’t guarantee delivery, pricing etc.

 

[mkhuffman]

The guy I was responding to said "If people are willing to pay more for something by definition the price is too low." He spoke very generally using the term "something" instead of "cars." In that context, it's fair to discuss anything.

But I like to bring up healthcare because it shows just how shortsighted the supply and demand economics arguments are when they talk about the power that the consumer has. The consumer's ultimate power is the ability to walk away from the deal. What do you do when you can't walk away from it?


If you're in accounting, then yes - you're leaving money on the table. Price it as high as you can to still sell everything, and back down when you're finding that inventory is piling up. But if demand is outstripping supply, there's more than price that factors into it.


Not sure how strict the mods will be with this - instead of giving a line by line reply (because I do enjoy the discussion but don't want to go too far off-topic for this thread), I would not that you said I am wrong, but you have very conveniently chosen scenarios that suit you. Putting your own arm in a cast? Drilling a well in your yard, or getting solar? What if you're in an emergency department and the blood supply to your arm has been severed, you have just a few minutes to make the choice about saving it or needing an amputation - so much for choice (to make it doubly fun, imagine you're unconscious and panicked family is being asked to sign the consent). As to utilities, what if you live in an apartment in the city (as the majority of the country does, assuming you're with me in the USA) and have no roof access to set up a rain barrel or solar panels? Get up and move somewhere else - but that takes resources to do, and if the economic reports are to be believed, the overwhelming majority of the country does not have the resources to do that. Running water and electricity may not be essential to simply live, but they're practically requirements to be a functioning part of modern society. If utilities wanted to they absolutely could put the squeeze on people, just as many landlords and rental agencies are doing, and so much income going to rent is having detrimental effects on people's purchasing power and savings. There's a reason why utility costs are regulated.


I know about basic economics. I also know that a lot of other people know a similar amount as I do, yet treat it like some law of nature, or something to be revered. As I mentioned above, I like to bring up healthcare because it reveals the flaws in much of that thinking. Healthcare isn't the only industry to do that, but it is an industry that people can more easily visualize and understand. Supply and demand, competition, pricing based on what the market will bear... I'm not trying to say that those are incorrect concepts, but they never applied perfectly to everything, and "the market" today (and what is demanded by modern life) has become infinitely more complex than it was back when those theories were crafted.

Most of the country lives in an apartment in a city? I would like to see the data that proves that statement, but like the rest of your post it is way off topic.

I am not going to get into a debate with you about medical care or water, even though I disagree with you. We always have choices and the fact you think you don't is very sad. And since this is a car forum, I am not going to continue to try to open your eyes. However, if you want to DM me, we can have a private off topic debate. I won't mind that.

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