This is why Ford will be conservative rolling out OTA updates

[DanHo]

you don't want the windshield to be sent over the air. that's not good.

Tesla thinks OTA windshields perform as expected...

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[Kamuelaflyer]

And this is precisely why I hope Ford does not try to use OTA updates for serious software issues, but only for adding enhancements. If it's a serious operational issue, the dealer needs to do it.

Define "serious." I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to establish what the boundaries might be.

Would the current PAAK "Customer Satisfaction Campaign" qualify as a serious dealer-only fix? Or would that be ok as part of the PowerUp deliveries? How about the bug where the sync system resets some of the preferences in a profile every power cycle? How about an (entirely) hypothetical regen system flaw? Is the dividing line safety related? I can see the point you seem to be making. I can also see the point of fixing via OTA if it can get the fix delivered faster and with better quality control. The upcoming windshield recall though? yeah, that'd be hard to OTA.

 

[metalpro2021]

Ford has acknowledged that they are using an active-passive approach to updates. So the module being updated stays operational during the download. If the vehicle is stationary the download will be installed and you are unable to use the car. So far so good. However, things get complicated when multiple modules needs to be updated and there is 'version dependency' : no module is allowed to fail, or else the other correctly updated modules need to be rolled-back. And that is where the problem starts, because that can fail too and then the car is bricked.

And now the ' kicker' : updates need a 12Volt battery to be reliable for a couple of hours. And those batteries are the problem in EV vehicles. That is the reason why a dealer gets the instruction to manually attach a 12volt battery for the process !

My 2-cents.

 

[DevSecOps]

OTA updates can be pushed out, but does Ford know if every vehicle has received it?

While many people here might moan and groan about things and assume what Ford might and might not do, I can answer this question with certainty.

Yes they know and anyone else here in the Tech/Software industry would say the same. They have onboard telemetry reporting back with this data. It's the same as Google or Apple publishing analytics on current OS usage.

Here's the information from the privacy policy:

· FordPass Connect (SYNC Connect) / Lincoln Connect (if equipped): FordPass Connect (SYNC Connect) or Lincoln Connect enables access to features through a modem built into the vehicle. The modem allows the vehicle to connect to wireless networks, much like a mobile device with a subscriber identity module (SIM). Like other vehicle parts, the modem is installed at the factory.

o Periodically, the modem sends messages to us, through our cellular network provider to enable Connected Services. The messages could include information that identifies the vehicle, the SIM, and the electronic serial number (ESN) of the FordPass Connect (SYNC Connect) / Lincoln Connect modem. At delivery, select model year 2020 and later vehicles are sharing vehicle related data with us (e.g., diagnostics).

o The cellular network provider may also associate the modem’s SIM to additional information such as cellular network tower identification. Unless the modem is deactivated, the modem will communicate with the cellular network provider.

 

[DYohn]

Define "serious." I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to establish what the boundaries might be.

Would the current PAAK "Customer Satisfaction Campaign" qualify as a serious dealer-only fix? Or would that be ok as part of the PowerUp deliveries? How about the bug where the sync system resets some of the preferences in a profile every power cycle? How about an (entirely) hypothetical regen system flaw? Is the dividing line safety related? I can see the point you seem to be making. I can also see the point of fixing via OTA if it can get the fix delivered faster and with better quality control. The upcoming windshield recall though? yeah, that'd be hard to OTA.

I'd say when it's safety related. If it's to correct a software bug that prevents radio presets from being held in memory that's not a big deal and absolutely should be OTA. But if it relates to the safe operation of the vehicle, I say it needs to be dealer-verified before use. When it's a liability or safety issue I want them to do it.

For example I recently had the software controlling the cameras (and presumably related systems) updated by the dealer due to some error codes thrown by the car. Would it have been "more convenient" for this to be sent to my vehicle OTA? Sure. But the liability associated with that is not something I want nor I'm sure that Ford wanted, since the effectiveness of the update directly impacts the safe operation of the vehicle, and is not something I could verify but the dealer could (and did.)

The PAAK update would likely fall into a similar category IMO. Since losing that functionality can and does impact the user's ability to operate the vehicle, it's not something I would want OTA. It's something I would want the dealer to do and then verify was correct before they give me the vehicle and call it repaired.

If the Blue Cruise update only activates or integrates functions already part of the vehicle, like many are speculating, then an OTA activation seems appropriate. If it adds functionality beyond desensitizing the hands on wheel sensor, then I will take the car to the dealer to setup and test before I try to use it.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

I'd say when it's safety related. If it's to correct a software bug that prevents radio presets from being held in memory that's not a big deal and absolutely should be OTA. But if it relates to the safe operation of the vehicle, I say it needs to be dealer-verified before use. When it's a liability or safety issue I want them to do it.

For example I recently had the software controlling the cameras (and presumably related systems) updated by the dealer due to some error codes thrown by the car. Would it have been "more convenient" for this to be sent to my vehicle OTA? Sure. But the liability associated with that is not something I want nor I'm sure that Ford wanted, since the effectiveness of the update directly impacts the safe operation of the vehicle, and is not something I could verify but the dealer could (and did.)

The PAAK update would likely fall into a similar category IMO. Since losing that functionality can and does impact the user's ability to operate the vehicle, it's not something I would want OTA. It's something I would want the dealer to do and then verify was correct before they give me the vehicle and call it repaired.

If the Blue Cruise update only activates or integrates functions already part of the vehicle, like many are speculating, then an OTA activation seems appropriate. If it adds functionality beyond desensitizing the hands on wheel sensor, then I will take the car to the dealer to setup and test before I try to use it.

Fair enough. I don't entirely agree, but our viewpoints aren't all that far apart really.

 

[DYohn]

OTAs are not 'trusted to users as a download'. They're an automated process which hopefully report back of success so that Ford can track which vehicles have/don't have what installed. Using OTA is much, much more efficient than relying on dealers to do one car at a time. Something that's safety critical is much better handled in mass OTA than over several months filtering through dealer service centers. Many owners will also skip having a recall service due to the hassle of having to make an appointment and work their schedules around taking the car in.

Semantics. Downloaded manually or pushed automatically is still being downloaded. And the only way the server can verify an OTA update was received is by verifying a checksum or some similar method that only checks that the entire data load was received, yes? Can they operate the vehicle and verify the update was effective after implementation? No they cannot. Can the user? Not reliably. Only the dealer can do that - and assume the liability of so doing I might add.

-edit- I suppose Ford could monitor effective implementation by receiving and analyzing vehicle performance data over time... but then what? If things are not right flash a big red warning on your dash display that something's not right, stop using the vehicle? Get thee to a dealer? Push out additional patches? I'd rather just have an update applied correctly and verified the first time....

 

[TheVirtualTim]

And now the ' kicker' : updates need a 12Volt battery to be reliable for a couple of hours. And those batteries are the problem in EV vehicles. That is the reason why a dealer gets the instruction to manually attach a 12volt battery for the process !

Although the car can maintain the 12v battery when the car is plugged in to AC power (and it does this from time to time). So it should be possible to apply those power-hungry updates when the car is plugged in.

My bigger concern is around the time required to complete the update. And... there are ways around this -- thoughI don't know if Ford takes advantage of them. If a module has twice as much storage than it actually needs, it is possible to put two copies of software/firmware on the device such that it can apply an update -- even when the car is being used. Once the update is completed, a pointer is changed to tell the module to load software from the new address the next time it is started.

Otherwise ... if an update needed some longer amount of time (say ... 2 hours) I would rather the update download but not install ... and give me a message that it is ready to install but will require those 2 hours. I would be able to start the install when convenient.

 

[Mirak]

I find it humorous that some people apparently are offended by being compared to gamers. My 45 year old daughter is a dedicated gamer and I respect her choices (as well as her mad skillz.) The comparison is not meant to be denigrating, it is meant to indicate the difference between an expectation of downloadable updates and patches to fix everything VS my expectation as a vehicle owner that serious issues should not be trusted to users as a download that is applied without experts available to monitor the results.

That is all.

Trust me, we get it. Nobody is offended being compared to a gamer. We (at least me) took issue with you downplaying the importance of fixing software bugs in a timely manner as long as they don’t impact the “usability” of our cars. This ain’t a toaster. It’s an expensive car. And some of us just have higher expectations. You should probably move on now.

 

[DYohn]

You should probably move on now.

You should mind your own business about what I do, bud,.

 

[Mantastic]

I'm 100% for OTA updates for anything major or minor, provided Ford does their due diligence in thoroughly testing them prior to release. Anything that saves me a dealer visit is a-ok in my book.

 

[TruWrecks]

While I think BC has it's issues, from my experience using it, I don't think FSD is in any way comparable to BC. BC is just ACC and LC with the added benefit of hands off. It's nothing more. Those technologies have been around for 10+ years in many mfgs and well vetted.

The biggest difference is the attention to the road which Ford ensures that you are doing. So assuming that there's an emergency vehicle on the road, you would take control. There's nothing in BC that claims it avoids Emergency Vehicles (would those be called EV's too??)

If Emergency Vehicles are a big threat to BlueCruise right now, Ford should be sending out an emergency update to disable BC on ALL the cars that currently have it. They are not. Ford is rewarding people for buying GT's and 2022 F150's and letting them have BC right now and the rest of us can suck it.

This is how I see it because this is the truth! Favoritism for those who purchased a certain product at a certain time. Nothing more.

I will stand by this until Ford proves me wrong!

 

[DevSecOps]

If Emergency Vehicles are a big threat to BlueCruise right now, Ford should be sending out an emergency update to disable BC on ALL the cars that currently have it.

Then they should also disable ACC and LC by your account? Because BC is simply those two systems, the same you have now. As someone who has BC, it's not all you might think it is. IMO, ACC and LC are much more effective than BC because they can be practically used anywhere you drive. Will BC crash into an Emergency Vehicle, I believe so... so will ACC. I don't see your point.

For those who say it would stop, all of these systems have a really hard time with stopped vehicles vs vehicles in motion. It's not a Ford, Tesla, Audi issue, it's an every mfg issue. The IIHS has said (in 2021) that using ACC (without BC) leads to a 10% higher likelihood of a fatal accident. I see no way BC would decrease that.

Ford is rewarding people for buying GT's and 2022 F150's and letting them have BC right now and the rest of us can suck it.

Months ago (as in 10ish) I went to a local Ford dealership with intent to purchase an MME. I drove it and decided it wasn't spunky enough for me. I really wanted it, but I knew that I wouldn't be happy with my choice if I did. So I told myself I would wait for the GTPE, which I did. I'm happy I waited (got it 2 weeks ago). Patience is a virtue. Lots of people get rewarded for different things. We aren't entitled to anything and maybe there's a valid reason for it.

If I could give you my BC I would... It's not all that. I would not however give you my performance

 

[jlauro]

I think it's important that safety issues be addressed as a recall notification. That makes sense. (Not sure if this should apply in this case as it sounds like it was beta FSD software and not generally available).

That said, there is no reason to have to visit the dealer unless it can't be fixed OTA, or the customer wants to have the dealer do it. The recall letter should state how to verify if the issue applies or has been resolved on the vehicle. The customer can then either apply the update (ie: OTA is disabled), or have their dealer do it.

In the case of a recall, even if the update was applied to a vehicle the letter should still be sent to everyone and not only those that did not receive an OTA update. It's possible the car required service because of the issue prior to the recall and it could be the company may be liable for the incident.

 

[DYohn]

Ford is rewarding people for buying GT's and 2022 F150's and letting them have BC right now and the rest of us can suck it.

This is how I see it because this is the truth! Favoritism for those who purchased a certain product at a certain time. Nothing more.

And if that ends up being the case, so what? I don't know, man, manufacturers add features to new model years all the time... If you bought the car in order to have BC then maybe you should have waited until you could buy one with it enabled instead of relying on a "we plan to roll it out later" promise?

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