The EV Naysayers

[mkhuffman]

And now let’s talk about some of the cons of EV ownership most people don’t know about…

Most people have no idea about charging curves. Meaning once you start that road trip at 100%, you’re effectively limited to 80% for DCFC from that point on unless you want to spend a lot more time charging.

Most people aren’t aware that you can go ahead and reduce your range by 30% in winter temps. Go ahead and shave off another 20% at highway speeds. And shave off even more for a stiff headwind. Shave off more if you’d like to use the heater.

Most people are not aware that EVs are currently suffering rather staggering depreciation.

Most people are somewhat aware of the lack of working/available DCFC, but not truly aware of just how shitty the situation actually is.

Most people are not aware that while garage charging is super easy, you can usually bank on spending $500 to several thousand dollars to get the necessary outlet in your garage.

These are just off the top of my head.

Misinformation and ignorance cuts both ways.

This is well said. There are things many new BEV owners don't know until they experience them.

I saw a post on a Lucid forum from someone complaining they can't get 350 kW of charging speed with his car, and he was blaming EA. His car isn't even capable of 350 kW charging, and the models that can charge over 300 kW, only can do it below 18% SoCD. There are people in that forum saying they are going to stop taking their Lucid on trips because public charging sucks.

What I think most people are objecting to is the push by multiple governments to force us into BEVs. Yes, the ICE ban in CA is something many people have heard of, and it is correct to perceive it just as it is perceived. Loopholes will be for the rich and the big companies, while the working poor will be forced to buy used cars because they won't be able to afford a new BEV. The Government in CA is tyrannical. Why can't they let people make their own decisions?

People don't want to spend $50k on a car that is going to make their lives harder. And traveling in a BEV is much harder than traveling in a ICE.

The interstate highways are very, very busy throughout our country - are all those people the outliers, the ones who only travel once a year? Maybe. But a lot of people do it. Look at the traffic jams around holiday weekends. Traffic going out of major cities on Fridays is horrible. I guess all those people trying to stop at a four pump EA station will be fine. Just slow down and smell the flowers, as you sit and wait for hours to get your turn to charge for 30 minutes.

The problems are real. I have been driving my MME out of town for two years now. And traveling in it sucks. My wife refuses to travel in my car now, we have had so many bad experiences. Around town it is great, but traveling sucks. She won't even consider a BEV, even though I keep suggesting a Rivian R1S. Nope. Instead we got a Grand Cherokee L - three rows of seats and 575 miles of highway range. It is stupid so suggest people are better off in a BEV - all you can say is YOU are better off in a BEV based your own personal experience.

If there were no positives about owning a BEV, I wouldn't own one. Of course I love smashing the go-pedal and getting to 70 mph twice as fast as the Jeep takes to get to 20. I love not needing to get the oil changed, or the spark plugs, or anything else required to maintain a gas powered vehicle. And it is super fun on twisty roads. I really do love it. Except for public charging.

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[mkhuffman]

Man, look at you noble men arguing environments, politics and even espionage conspiracy theories. For a layman like me. I just want some of the affordable chinese EV offerings. MG cyberster, the 2.84 sec 0-60 zeekr 007. $40-50K price range. too bad the politics prevent it.

The existing offerings in the US market is just boring SUV after another boring SUV. Slow and over priced. The fast acceleration model 3 has cheap ass interior.

CCP spyware is not a conspiracy theory. It is real. The CCP is your enemy. If you don't care when they spy on you, that is fine for you. I do care, and our government should care.

 

[Mach1E]

I hope I’m closer to right than you are. I honestly don’t know.

What I do know is that we’re nearly 20 years into the commercial jump from NiMH to Li-Ion. We need one more jump like that. Solid state seems to be close. It already exists, just not at scale.

Oh I definitely hope I’m wrong and we are just near a breakthrough.

But even solid state doesn’t eliminate the issues, just makes things a little better.

But even the theoretical solid state batteries still have cost, weight, heat, relatability and charging issues.

Yes they theoretically weigh less and charge faster. But they still wouldn’t weigh little enough and charge fast enough compared to gasoline.

Energy density and charging speeds are much less of a concern for small cars and crossovers. Once you try to go big…….we are in trouble

Let’s say we have a solid state that weighs half as much and charges twice as fast. Range problem solved, right?

Not so fast.

Instead of a 100 kWh battery weighing 1500 lbs, you have a 200……that still weighs 1500 lbs.

And instead of charging that 100 for 40 minutes…..you charge the 200 for…… 40 minutes.

So while you doubled the range you still spend a long time charging and weigh just as much. And it’s definitely gonna cost more.

 

[Mach1E]

Man, look at you noble men arguing environments, politics and even espionage conspiracy theories. For a layman like me. I just want some of the affordable chinese EV offerings. MG cyberster, the 2.84 sec 0-60 zeekr 007. $40-50K price range. too bad the politics prevent it.

The existing offerings in the US market is just boring SUV after another boring SUV. Slow and over priced. The fast acceleration model 3 has cheap ass interior.

Even if we imported Chinese cars, we wouldn’t get them at Chinese prices.

Only way to get them at those prices would be to move there.

 

[Peugfan]

Yeah, just add it to the list of things they don't know about beyond their front yard. Issues around solar/wind power generation limitations are already thought of and there are a variety of existing and potential future storage options (Gravity batteries, traditional batteries, grid interconnection which is already a thing that would allow east coast states to produce earlier for west coast, and west coast to produce for east coast) along with nuclear, hydro, etc to serve as well. A list of them are here: https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/solar-integration-solar-energy-and-storage-basics#:~:text=Types of Energy Storage,(fluids) with CSP plants.

A potential electrical storage battery option for power company grid storage is being developed right now by Form Energy (formenergy.com). They are now ready to test this commercially. A plant to produce the cells is now being built in West Virginia and a demonstration system will be tested by XcelEnergy in Minnesota.
The principle of the battery is Fe/O2, Iron/air oxidation. Since the energy transfer is slow 100 hr to complete discharge you need a large bank of cells. BUT, this is perfect for storage of wind and/or solar energy systems which can have long periods of low energy output. The cost per megawatt-hr is 1/10 that of Li-ion systems. It does NOT use chemicals which are environmentally bad to mine and refine, like Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel, and Manganese. It uses iron and oxygen. I really hope this demonstration plant proves successful which can help solar and windpower become more viable.

 

[shutterbug]

To be fair, gas stations have backup generators to work during power outages.

Been through quite a few hurricanes and outages in the last few decades. They get the power back to them first as well.

When I lived in Florida (admittedly a long time ago), very few gas stations had any sort of back-up power. Also, even if gas station does have power, it does run out of gas at some point. During Hurricane Andrew, parts of Dade county, had no gasoline for 3 weeks.

 

[MW1515]

Some of this is… not exactly false.

We really have no idea what’s gonna happen with all these battery packs. Recycling at scale is far from proven. Anybody who still has unshakeable confidence in any manner of recycling at this point ought to gain perspective.

EVs aren’t 100% powered by coal, but EVs aren’t gonna take coal offline anytime soon because all renewable energy requires a 100% backup.

Both EV and ICE would have trouble fueling in a power outage, but at least one can easily store gasoline if that concerned.

Ummm… you would WAY rather be stuck in a blizzard in an ICE than an EV.

Are you not aware that California asked people to avoid charging their EVs last summer to avoid brownouts? Our grid is pitiful.

It isn’t “impossible” to take an EV on a road trip, but harder? Yes. You’re using superlative straw men.

Agree to disagree with you about all of this. You are raising some of your own straw men. I am not interested in getting into a drawn out back and forth with you. Your original point was that only the current limitations of EVs are holding people back from buying one and that misinformation is not playing a role and I think that is absolutely incorrect. Keep in mind I'm not saying that all of those misconceptions I have heard are 100% false all the time but they are reasons I've been given for not wanting an EV. So the superlatives are quoted from the people I heard those from.

 

[Auto Motive]

This is well said. There are things many new BEV owners don't know until they experience them.

I saw a post on a Lucid forum from someone complaining they can't get 350 kW of charging speed with his car, and he was blaming EA. His car isn't even capable of 350 kW charging, and the models that can charge over 300 kW, only can do it below 18% SoCD. There are people in that forum saying they are going to stop taking their Lucid on trips because public charging sucks.

What I think most people are objecting to is the push by multiple governments to force us into BEVs. Yes, the ICE ban in CA is something many people have heard of, and it is correct to perceive it just as it is perceived. Loopholes will be for the rich and the big companies, while the working poor will be forced to buy used cars because they won't be able to afford a new BEV. The Government in CA is tyrannical. Why can't they let people make their own decisions?

People don't want to spend $50k on a car that is going to make their lives harder. And traveling in a BEV is much harder than traveling in a ICE.

The interstate highways are very, very busy throughout our country - are all those people the outliers, the ones who only travel once a year? Maybe. But a lot of people do it. Look at the traffic jams around holiday weekends. Traffic going out of major cities on Fridays is horrible. I guess all those people trying to stop at a four pump EA station will be fine. Just slow down and smell the flowers, as you sit and wait for hours to get your turn to charge for 30 minutes.

The problems are real. I have been driving my MME out of town for two years now. And traveling in it sucks. My wife refuses to travel in my car now, we have had so many bad experiences. Around town it is great, but traveling sucks. She won't even consider a BEV, even though I keep suggesting a Rivian R1S. Nope. Instead we got a Grand Cherokee L - three rows of seats and 575 miles of highway range. It is stupid so suggest people are better off in a BEV - all you can say is YOU are better off in a BEV based your own personal experience.

If there were no positives about owning a BEV, I wouldn't own one. Of course I love smashing the go-pedal and getting to 70 mph twice as fast as the Jeep takes to get to 20. I love not needing to get the oil changed, or the spark plugs, or anything else required to maintain a gas powered vehicle. And it is super fun on twisty roads. I really do love it. Except for public charging.

We did too with our GTPE as chargers were really poorly maintaimed. We bought a 2023 model y AWD long range. Superchargers are everywhere and weekend trips in summer are anxiety free. 250 fast charging with up to 150 miles 15 to 20 minutes. Love both. Run 3.7, 3.8kwh ac on at 65 mph. Afte tax credit cost $44500 which included custom wheels and paint.

 

[Auto Motive]

I agree with this- I think the argument lies between those who think we have to get there RIGHT NOW! and those who don't want to even leave the house until they're good and ready, and don't you try to rush them or they might just go back to bed.

Every charger installed reduces the HassleFactor(tm) a little, and every little bit might move the TotalHassle Score (tm) down enough for someone that it matches a comparable ICE, at which point that person is ready, willing, and able to make a choice between an EV and an ICE. The easier it is to get and operate an EV, the more of them will be bought.

Government subsidies are a way to reduce HassleFactors- rebates reduce the cost, infrastructure money installs charging, making it possible for people who wouldn't have been able to afford an EV otherwise to get one if they want and to charge it at the new station that wouldn't otherwise have been built. They're just supposed to kickstart the process, help get things up to a critical mass so that it's self-sustaining. Like a nuclear pile, I suppose (in too many ways to list!).

But that's not exciting enough to shout about and generate a headline or two.

Auto news commented that this year that ev and hybrids sales will be 1.2million in US.

 

[thekat03]

Even if we imported Chinese cars, we wouldn’t get them at Chinese prices.

Only way to get them at those prices would be to move there.

We already kind of are. Tesla's price wars are in part due to global competition with the Chinese EV companies. If the Volvo EX30 becomes popular in the US, other Chinese EV manufacturers are likely to find their way into the US market, and the other EVs sold here will have to compete. OK, you don't have to buy a car sold by a company with a Chinese entrepreneur at the head of it if you're worried about Chinese communist party spyware in it, but that price competition, even with US tariffs layered on, is going to be what pushes all EV prices down to more accessible ranges.

 

[mkhuffman]

What is your definition of an "older person"? I was born in the 1960's. Other than a few automotive forums, I don't use social media. I think you are implying old people ignorantly resist change.

What are the benefits of owning an EV? I've been on this forum since September and spent hours reading all sorts of threads. I've yet to find a benefit over ICEV. Make your case.

- No oil changes.
- No spark plug changes.
- No engine air cleaner to replace.
- I can refuel at home, and never need a unplanned stop somewhere to refuel (when staying local).
- I can start the car in the garage with the garage door closed.
- It is twice as fast to 60 mph than any ICE car I have owned.
- It is not just quiet, it is silent at idle and slow speeds (of course I had to disconnect the idiotic government mandated pedestrian speaker to get this benefit).
- After a hurricane that knocks out power for a week, I can refuel my car with my NG generator if needed so I am not stranded even if all the gas stations are without power.
- I can refuel for free at hotels and my office building (when the charger hog a-holes move their cars).
- it is very efficient and refueling cost is significantly less than ICE when refueling at home or when using the free chargers that are available. (DCFC can be similar in cost to ICE refueling.)
- it's an adventure being part of the early adopter crowd and it is fun to stategize the best way to get to a destination that requires charging. (This is also a negative for many people, but for the adventurous type, it can be fun. It was definitely more fun when it was easier to find working and avaliable public chargers.)
- MMM specific: it is a great looking car. I am still getting compliments from people who see the car. Just yesterday the car wash kids complimented how it looks.

This doesn't mean BEVs are ready for the normal driver. I don't think they are. But it was the right purchase for me.

 

[Red Baron]

I don’t know. How much? And why didn’t democrats stop those subsidies when they controlled all branches of government? Or are they in on the conspiracy, too?

Possibly it is because you need 60 votes in the Senate to pass almost anything. So, controlling the Senate with 51 or 52 votes is not enough.

 

[Mrn]

I agree. Mostly political … and both sides are annoying.

Especially the OTHER side ?.

 

[mkhuffman]

Possibly it is because you need 60 votes in the Senate to pass almost anything. So, controlling the Senate with 51 or 52 votes is not enough.

Thank God.

 

[mkhuffman]

Some good points for a homeowner with private L2 home charging available to them (and a whole-house generator).

Most ICEV require spark plugs every 100,000 miles (near 10 years of ownership) and $65 oil changes at 8,500 to 10,000 miles, so once per year. Engine air filter replacements are typically 45,000 miles, so every 4 years and most cars take 10 minutes to install a $18 air filter. As a counterpoint, I've read on the MME forum the strategies taken to rotate tires on the MME. It seems overly difficult to perform DIY tire rotations considering the lack of chassis points to lift the MME. One has to be careful of where the jack points are and not use the battery as a chassis member to lift the car. There are aftermarket pucks made for the MME rocker panel (and "No-Lift" stickers) to help. In the time it takes to get tires rotated, the engine of an ICEV can be drained and refilled.

So, while EV naysayers possibly overestimate road trip charging times, having to do the minimal ICEV annual maintenance and tune up an ICE every 10 years as a burden espoused by EV advocates is a bit of a stretch also.

I think the hurricane scenario is a bit of a stretch as well. When hurricane Isabel hit in 2003, we were actually without power for a week. I have a portable generator I run the house on under such circumstances, so I didn't die. But I live on a river, so I was flooded in for a few days, so I couldn't go anywhere anyway (lol). I finally got out using my ICEV 4x4 Truck and Jeep to drive through 30" of water to get out. I'm not sure an MME or Tesla would have been able to do that. I found the electricity in town (where the gas stations are) was on; the grocery store had plenty of fresh food too. I'm sure hurricanes in Florida can be worse, but I'll counter with the numerous flooded EV car fire stories we've all heard or read about. But personally, I can store 18 gallons of gasoline, so in advance of a hurricane I can fuel up my gas car(s) and fuel stores and have easily thousands of miles of range. I have three ICEV with 400+ miles tank range and two with 350 miles - so with the 18 gallons stored and full tanks in all the cars, that's 2,300 miles of range (if the gas stations were out of power that long).

The benefit of 0 - 60 times is a bit pointless in real world use (I'll leave the MME HVBJB issue alone). All my ICE cars (one is 26 years old - @ 8.2 sec.) have completely adequate acceleration capabilities to drive in traffic. We can also leave out of the discussion track use where most EV overheat or run out of energy quickly as a counter point.

And I 100% agree, the MME is a great looking vehicle whether ICEV or EV. Just in the EV market, it is the best looking with the Tycan and Volvo EX-30 not far behind. Compared to Tesla's STALE products, the MME actually has some art to it.

But all my jibber jabber above is personal use case (which was my point - and yours). But looking at the generic automotive market that has a significant number of buyer share who do not have access to L2 private charging, I don't see where EV offers a true advantage when charging comes into play. Based on the MME owner's manual, my understanding is constantly charging with DCFC equipment accelerates HVB battery degradation and shortens total battery life. On top of wintertime non-preconditioning of the battery and cabin, the non-private charging owner kind of gets a bit screwed with EV IMO. Extended road trips are the issue in my opinion. While there are numerous threads and posts here that show EV road trips are feasible, from an ICEV owner's point of view, the extra fuel-stop planning required and somewhat limited path-options involved, greatly moves the needle on the pain-in-the-assometer (PITAM).

It appears we are in agreement that EV are case specific. I am fine with that. It's the legislative side of the discussion I have great issue with. The legislative side is going to positively affect EV advocates (theoretically), yet it is going to adversely affect ICEV users greatly. I see an eventual overall lower standard of living coming out of all this, which I think is unfair to everyone.

I agree with basically your entire post. I will just say that the PIA meter for me is pretty high when it comes to getting gas when I need to get to a local destination, and also pretty high regarding maintenance. Once a year items seem to always come up at a inconvenient time.

But that is just me. I hate those things. I purchased a battery powered lawn mower because I hated all the maintenance required on a gas one. Now I only have to worry about charging the batteries. Ever. So much easier for me.

Edit: storing gasoline is also a huge PIA because it goes bad.

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