The EV “Green” Narrative

[GreaseMonkey]

LOL. “I believe in SCIENCE. (But not enough to buy a Tesla.)

You still here, bro

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[OcSteve39]

At the start of the pandemic, we saw in real time changes in air quality because many people stopped driving. We saw less asthma and COPD exacerbations. Skies were clearer. It was striking, in part because it happened in the span of days or weeks, globally.

However, we couldn't shut down travel forever. Life has to go on, and we all have places to go and things to do, and so we are back to driving and flying and traveling as much as we did before. But that episode is proof to me that yes, changes we individuals make can accumulate and potentially make a big difference. We aren't necessarily going to stop driving and traveling, but we can make some difference by reducing our day to day emissions. It isn't everything that we as a society need to do to slow global warming, but it is something that I can do, and that as these cars become more affordable, more of us can as well.

This response is no "narative". It is our (all of ours) lived experience.
Those global improvements were measurable and emmediate.
Remember, as the globe stopped traveling, we still burned fossel fuels to heat our homes and run the grid. That is further proof that if we only stop emmissions throughout the globe and only emit at the plants, that is enough for the earth to heal itself.
Stop allowing people to convince you that empirical fact is "narative". If you only do that, you may just save this planet and your democracy as a bonus.

 

[VaporTrails]

Most trends follow narratives (historically). Financial markets, green initiatives (EVs), etc…there’s usually a reason (financial or political typically) that narratives are pushed.

Did you buy an EV to save the planet, or because you’re trying to save money on fuel, or just curious about the tech/try something different?

I believe that EVs are luxury purchases driven by a narrative (good or bad). I don’t believe that if we all drove ICE vehicles the world would end.

What are your thoughts?

Many years ago, my Chemistry prof was decrying catalytic converters because they exchanged a small amount of Hydrochloric acids for a much greater amount of sulfuric acid out of the exhaust. I remember thinking “those are my choices?!?!” I noted a media post that referenced that it takes 28,000 mi to break even for the additional material in an EV. For my use-case, I have previous cars with 150k and 210k respectively. That will do.

For my thought process on buying an EV….I approached the problem from a conservation of energy approach. I could afford to consider that in my case. (To your point on it being a luxury right now, agreed.)
If you believe that combustion is the problem, cars are not the biggest polluters in that space. Ships and planes don’t typically tool by downtown very much, so aren’t noticed as a problem. Combustion is tremendously inefficient. It generates more heat than work. That heat can be more completely captured by a professional plant than a mobile platform (I.e. car). I can capture energy every time I brake, and the energy for the car is in my garage? Sign me up. (My monthly bill for energy is 1/6th my bill was for gas.)

The second thing I considered was if the battery would last. I have a Lithium Ion drill I bought 10 years ago. It still works every time I pick it up. That will do.

I will say that my garage is much cooler in the long summer and doesn’t smell like burnt oil. I like that. RC car-like performance doesn’t hurt either.

 

[Deleted member 9461]

I personally went with an EV for
1) fill up at home, in the am ready to drive
2) it's cool like driving an IPOD or if you're old enough a ZUNE
3) living in hawaii, people are jerks, if you need to get over one lane, stomp it (aloha my aft opening)
4) if we can centralize exhaust discharge (at a power plant location vs on the highway) local air quality would improve.
5) I run a lot, having a EV running with the heat/ac idling costs little.

nothing we drive is going to save the environment, I've worked with oil/coal fired steam, nuclear, solar...you want to save the planet everyone need to be pedaling a bike.

 

[waldo1949]

First, thanks for your service.

I don't consider money going to China any better and I would consider them a far greater threat than Venezuela or any Arab country. Fords HUUUUUGE investment is in CATL, which is a Chinese company. We have enough oil to be self sufficient here in the USA, we don't need foreign oil, that's a choice. While EV's emit less carbon (they emit none), they cost far more carbon to build. Furthermore, carbon calculations from energy generation are fudged and don't represent true values. For example, solar panels or gas from other countries are excluded from upstream emissions (not our emissions mentality). Last I checked, very high mileage hybrids (ala Prius) have a total carbon footprint lower than EVs in many cases. The rest of the points I agree with.

It does take more energy/carbon to build an EV. One starts earning that back on the drive home from the dealer. It takes the average EV 12-18 months to become carbon neutral, then it’s all savings. I bought into a solar farm, so my Mach e became carbon neutral more quickly.
Fords battery plant being built near my home does have an association with a Chinese company, but is Ford owned and controlled. So is the Ford complex being built in KY.

 

[Deleted member 9461]

Yeah, this thread won't get locked.

The advice of "follow the money" is an excellent one, but you've been convinced to look in the wrong place. The oil companies stand to lose hundreds of billions, the climatologists are lucky to be paid $100,000. The largest campaign contributors are oil companies; You'd be lucky to find 3 politicians who've developed a war chest based on "green issues".

I know I am wasting my breath here, but two cases come to mind. Back in the 80's there was a republican politician from Oklahoma who tried to bring forward legislation to try to do something about global warming. The Koch brothers created a fake grassroots campaign to make it look like his constituents objected vehemently; that was exactly the last time a conservative was worried about fossil fuels. For over 30 years the american petroleum institute paid Dr Robert Kehoe to lie about the imnpact of leaded gasoline. US geologist Clair Patterson realized atmospheric lead levels were artificially high when he was trying to date the age of the earth. For over a decade the API discredited him and tried to get him fired - but finally the data actually won. That was just over an additive that stopped knocking - imagine how concerned they over eliminating their product completely?

I bought my EV and got solar panels to reduce my personal carbon footprint. It probably won't make a damn bit of difference unless a large portion of the population do, but that doesn't mean I have to be complicit.

I use to scuba dive with a lot of scientists at NOAA a recent Commander and Chief said we need to shore up global warming, they submitted research that said A,B, and C, this certain elected official, said find a global warming issue or you'll see your budget cut by 50%, NOAA already being the smallest uniformed service with a big responsibility had a choice, lose substantial funding or develop a new term. SO you are 100% correct in your post.

 

[DennisD]

I purchased an EV because I like to be on the cutting edge of leaning forward. I am not ready for my "main driver" to be an EV yet but I am getting there. I am glad I purchased one to know first hand on the benefits of using/owning one.

It is too bad that I live in a State that is backward thinking and ignorant to the many things that can improve the quality of my life and future generations through small steps/changes that we can all do. I am old enough to remember when many people thought that recycling was a waste of time. As a society, we need to make the transition IMO and this is at least a start for a cleaner planet.

I am glad I did this.

 

[Deleted member 9461]

Cost of ownership.

I can not put a oil well in by back yard but I can build a solar array.

The best car part is no part at all.. A single drive motor and battery with relays and electronics if much simpler that a whirling ICE motor and slush box transmission. Surely retooling entire industries is expensive but in the end the margins make it the future.

Tesla and their Semi are changing industry.

These cars are fun to drive and their impact on the spread sheet is positive. Heck, my 22 is coming up on 10k miles on the clock, only reason I know is by looking at the ODO, not from counting spells of anxiety at the pump or moaning at the price of synthetic oil changes to preserve the turbos....

Bro, my 1987 jeep (in 2014) needed a new engine and trans, it took a month and a half to swap, and make proper adjustments. a year later I grafted a nissan leaf to if, it took "2 FRAKKING WEEKS" !!!!! the hardest part was building 3 battery compartments to get the leafy in there!!!!!

 

[markboris]

"Green?" No. My other cars are dirty pigs. But... They're fun. I bought a fun car that so happened to be an EV. Well, and also because I needed to use up my excess PV generation.

We're similar Steve.

Green? No. My other car ('20 GT500) is one of Ford's least efficient cars they've ever produced. I had to pay a $2600 federal gas guzzler tax but I like fun cars and Mustangs. I also figured an EV would be the logical choice to use up my excess PV generation so went with the MME. Besides a few DCFC stops on trips, solar is the only other source that has charged my MME. Nearing 40K miles driving an EV I really like not having to pay for fuel in my DD.

 

[21st Century Pony]

I bought the Mach E because, in this order:

1. I, and likely others here, have seen firsthand the national security implications of overdependence on foreign oil supplies from countries I've served in and whose governments / corporations will take our $$$ and yet cause our service men and women to die when it's convenient. It only takes one funeral or one body escort mission for soldiers one has personally known, to resolve to not support the extractive oil economies of Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Russia if I can help it. I'm sure I'm not the only one here this has happened to.

2. The Mach E is a great car... better more fun to drive than the BMW 318i I bought in Berlin (er, West Berlin) and then drove from almost new to into-the-ground, back in the day. And the maintenance cost... well, what maintenance cost?

3. Maybe, my ownership and sharing of the Mach E among friends and neighbors will help do my bit to move the uninformed yet well-meaning fellow citizens along. My best friend of 34 years and I just drove my Mach E back from San Francisco California to Northern Virginia this past August. The trip has certainly changed his mind about EVs writ large. At all the many charging stations enroute, my bud was the one asking all the Id4 and Rivian and Ionique and Lightning owners about their EVs.

 

[Scooby24]

My thoughts are I'm really tired of others telling me what a good or bad narrative is based on their own biases and understandings, or if my purchase decision based on my own understanding was justified based on someone else's understanding.

Quit worrying about why someone else did a thing. It's not about you.

 

[thekat03]

If you believe that combustion is the problem, cars are not the biggest polluters in that space. Ships and planes don’t typically tool by downtown very much, so aren’t noticed as a problem.

Sure, but it is something at least some of us can change, just as we can potentially skip flying, and local-source more of our goods and food. We can't do everything (can't truly local-source chocolate or coffee, here in Maine), but anything each of us do to help is good.

 

[RedStallion]

At the start of the pandemic, we saw in real time changes in air quality because many people stopped driving. We saw less asthma and COPD exacerbations. Skies were clearer. It was striking, in part because it happened in the span of days or weeks, globally.

However, we couldn't shut down travel forever. Life has to go on, and we all have places to go and things to do, and so we are back to driving and flying and traveling as much as we did before. But that episode is proof to me that yes, changes we individuals make can accumulate and potentially make a big difference. We aren't necessarily going to stop driving and traveling, but we can make some difference by reducing our day to day emissions. It isn't everything that we as a society need to do to slow global warming, but it is something that I can do, and that as these cars become more affordable, more of us can as well.

I remember at that time California was burning. The air quality was dangerous even for healthy people. One event like that is a bigger problem than a million cars on the road. Bad forest management has been a bane for many years in parts of US and Canada. That's much cheaper and lower hanging fruit than trying to electrify all transport while exporting emissions elsewhere.

10:33am on 9/9/2020 as seen from my backyard

 

[RKinWA]

I'm a tech guy, and have tech friends. One of those friends has been a Tesla fanboy since 2019 when he bought his Model X, and he's been trying to talk me into getting one because of the tech, the large screen, the convenience of just coming home and plugging in and never having to go to a gas station again, no oil changes and therefore no spilled oil on the ground, and how much fun it was to drive.

After seeing all the Teslas on the road, and with the knowledge that in 10 years most everyone will have an electric vehicle anyway, curiosity got the better of me and I started checking them out. I knew from the get-go that Tesla wasn't for me (exterior and interior style wise), so I started checking out the competition. There were a few that I didn't hate based on style, but didn't like their interiors. Then one of the Ford dealerships actually got an MME on the lot (this was in February 23 when they were still very hard to find). Once I saw it in person I fell in love with the style, and once I sat in it, I fell in love with the comfort and interior, and once I drove it, I fell in love with the driving experience.

All of my friend's comments from the first paragraph made total sense to me and fit me perfectly. Given the knowledge that the up front costs would FAR outweigh any gas or maintenance savings, and the fact it's actually more harmful to the environment to make batteries for the EVs than it is to drive an ICE vehicle (and they use ICE vehicles in the process of creating EVs), I'm sorry to say environmental impact has really taken a back seat to my own selfish desires of having my MME.

 

[thekat03]

I remember at that time California was burning. The air quality was dangerous even for healthy people. One event like that is a bigger problem than a million cars on the road. Bad forest management has been a bane for many years in parts of US and Canada. That's much cheaper and lower hanging fruit than trying to electrify all transport while exporting emissions elsewhere.

10:33am on 9/9/2020 as seen from my backyard

Let's do both. Forest management absolutely needs to be better. Also, let's do what we can to slow global warming, which is changing weather patterns, causing droughts that dry up the forests, making them extra-vulnerable to any spark.