Public Charging Sucks

[Billyk24]

I dont understand why so many chargers are not working. With how much they charge per KW they must be making money. i would think they want them to be working. if they are not charging someone's car/truck they are not making money. I think what we really need is for gas stations to start adding chargers. it will be perfect. as you wait for your car to charge you walk inside and buy something most gas stations have extra parking that never gets used. Have they not thought of this already? Future gas stations will become more of a rest stop.

Charging stalls at gas stations is already occurring. Both Tesla (NACS) and CCS stalls have been and are being installed at multiple locations. This is desirable for most road trippers as they go inside for their various needs/desires and the store locations receives additional revenue. The downside is the charging companies may not(?) receive any of this indoor revenue despite drawing these customers into that location.

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[valfam]

Charging stalls at gas stations is already occurring. Both Tesla (NACS) and CCS stalls have been and are being installed at multiple locations. This is desirable for most road trippers as they go inside for their various needs/desires and the store locations receives additional revenue. The downside is the charging companies may not(?) receive any of this indoor revenue despite drawing these customers into that location.

The charging company is getting prime real-estate location that drives know from the ice days and they are making a killing on the kw already, and I would assume the gas station is on a more powerful and reliable electrical grid too. Who knows gas companies might start having there own charging network. I think shell is already doing this. Gas stations could easily re bage charges or design there own they have the money and there job is to provide energy.

 

[mkhuffman]

The charging company is getting prime real-estate location that drives know from the ice days and they are making a killing on the kw already, and I would assume the gas station is on a more powerful and reliable electrical grid too. Who knows gas companies might start having there own charging network. I think shell is already doing this. Gas stations could easily re bage charges or design there own they have the money and there job is to provide energy.

Why do you think they are making a "killing"? Did you know the power company charges them more for high demand power?

Those chargers pull a lot of power in a short period of time, and if is not cheap to do that. Not at all. From what I have read, they can actually lose money on a marginal basis. Worse, it is very expensive to install them and when they barely make money on a marginal basis, they may never pay off the capital investment required to install them.

DCFC stations are money losers, generally, which is another reason why public charging sucks.

 

[Billyk24]

Shell, BP and Chevon (EVgo) have installed and/or are installing car charging stations at different locations. Flying J/Pilot is doing the same at interstate travel stops. Major Regional gas station/Convenience stores such as Sheetz, GetGo, WaWa are doing the same. Not sure what the deal is with EA/Tesla/Chargepoint/EVgo charging stalls being installed at these gas/travel/convenience stores and if they have to pay rent for the space or is the space rent free? Charging $.50 or more per kWh is going to take a long time to recoup the cost of EV charging infrastructure at each location. A stupid example of the revenue if a charging stall gets six users charging 50kWh at 50cents per k'Wh, then that is $150 a day in revenue. $1050 a week. $4200 a month which is $50,400.00 a year which doesn't cover the cost of one charging stall and infrastructure needed. Expenses could be $1000 a month for demand charges, 12 cents per kWh costs, monthly card reader fees and other including the famous word: taxes. You make more money with customers indoors purchasing drinks, food and other.

 

[valfam]

Shell, BP and Chevon (EVgo) have installed and/or are installing car charging stations at different locations. Flying J/Pilot is doing the same at interstate travel stops. Major Regional gas station/Convenience stores such as Sheetz, GetGo, WaWa are doing the same. Not sure what the deal is with EA/Tesla/Chargepoint/EVgo charging stalls being installed at these gas/travel/convenience stores and if they have to pay rent for the space or is the space rent free? Charging $.50 or more per kWh is going to take a long time to recoup the cost of EV charging infrastructure at each location. A stupid example of the revenue if a charging stall gets six users charging 50kWh at 50cents per k'Wh, then that is $150 a day in revenue. $1050 a week. $4200 a month which is $50,400.00 a year which doesn't cover the cost of one charging stall and infrastructure needed. Expenses could be $1000 a month for demand charges, 12 cents per kWh costs, monthly card reader fees and other including the famous word: taxes. You make more money with customers indoors purchasing drinks, food and other.

I understand all that, but they say the same thing about gas stations. I have heard they lose money per gallon or they make pennies per gallon I have heard they make it up with the store sales.. everyone is in the market to make money if there was no money to be made they would close shop and go home. The electric company makes money selling power the more you use the more they make why do you think power companies don't sell solar panels to its own customers it would only make sense? They are in the business to sell power not save it.

 

[mkhuffman]

I understand all that, but they say the same thing about gas stations. I have heard they lose money per gallon or they make pennies per gallon I have heard they make it up with the store sales.. everyone is in the market to make money if there was no money to be made they would close shop and go home. The electric company makes money selling power the more you use the more they make why do you think power companies don't sell solar panels to its own customers it would only make sense? They are in the business to sell power not save it.

The difference is volume and a gas pump won't send you a huge demand power bill if there is a lot of people high speed charging at the same time (like three Lucids pull up at 10% and plug in).

Gas is not a massive money loser, but a DCFC can be. Not always, and it can be managed. And if they have high charger utilization it is possible to make money. But they are definitely not "making a killing". Not even close.

 

[dbsb3233]

Charging stalls at gas stations is already occurring. Both Tesla (NACS) and CCS stalls have been and are being installed at multiple locations. This is desirable for most road trippers as they go inside for their various needs/desires and the store locations receives additional revenue. The downside is the charging companies may not(?) receive any of this indoor revenue despite drawing these customers into that location.

I think it's an important distinction to separate travel plazas from gas stations in this context. A corner gas station would generally make for a bad DCFC location. But a travel plaza often makes for a great location. Not because it has gas, but because it has a restaurant and a store and good bathrooms and is located on a major interstate travel route.

 

[TGIF]

I understand all that, but they say the same thing about gas stations. I have heard they lose money per gallon or they make pennies per gallon I have heard they make it up with the store sales.. everyone is in the market to make money if there was no money to be made they would close shop and go home. The electric company makes money selling power the more you use the more they make why do you think power companies don't sell solar panels to its own customers it would only make sense? They are in the business to sell power not save it.

My family owned a gas station. We made a couple pennies per gallon. The C-Store is far more profitable. Im guessing charging stations are much more of a loss leader. Really best for the owner to have it located where they can bring in a captive audience who will spend more on drinks, food and snacks. May also justify a symbiotic relationship where a gas station owner leases or gives space to a charging company to generate foot traffic. Don’t know how the EVSE owners will make a profit, but given that gas stations still get favorable tax treatments I’m sure it can be done.

 

[valfam]

I guess we will see how it all turns out. Gas stations and rest stops have roofs over the dcfc so they could install solar panels to off set some of the cost of power which I know will add more upfront cost. these are all growing pains of a new world we are stepping into. I'm confident it will get worked out.

 

[dbsb3233]

My family owned a gas station. We made a couple pennies per gallon. The C-Store is far more profitable. Im guessing charging stations are much more of a loss leader. Really best for the owner to have it located where they can bring in a captive audience who will spend more on drinks, food and snacks. May also justify a symbiotic relationship where a gas station owner leases or gives space to a charging company to generate foot traffic. Don’t know how the EVSE owners will make a profit, but given that gas stations still get favorable tax treatments I’m sure it can be done.

Only problem there is that DCFC foot traffic is a tiny fraction of gas foot traffic, unless it's a rare superstation like Baker CA. With a transaction time 7-10x longer, the daily throughput capacity per-pump is a small fraction of gas. It just doesn't work as a loss-leader like gas does (very little, anyway).

Thus why DCFC typically needs to be an add-on to an existing already-profitable business.

 

[mkhuffman]

I guess we will see how it all turns out. Gas stations and rest stops have roofs over the dcfc so they could install solar panels to off set some of the cost of power which I know will add more upfront cost. these are all growing pains of a new world we are stepping into. I'm confident it will get worked out.

The high demand (and extremely high cost) power draws can be mitigated with storage batteries that "refill" when the chargers are idle, and level out the power draw from the power company. The obvious problem with batteries are: 1) they are expensive to install, and 2) they need idle time to refill.

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