Reduction Gear Oil changes?

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Scooby24

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Ha, I'm probably as skeptical as anyone you'll ever meet. I question everything. It comes down to motivation.

What motivation is there to specify an incorrect - especially a too-long - maintenance interval? Who would benefit from that? Oil and filter manufacturers, Jiffy Lube, etc., would be the main beneficiaries. Long-term, not the auto manufacturers.
The motivation of specifying a longer than optimal maintenance interval would be reduced cost to the Manufacturers that are paying maintenance plans like BMW. The benefit is also reducing the "cost of ownership" metric which IS being considered by buyers. A stereotype of being expensive to maintain is a big issue with some OEMs and has led to a major shift in their maintenance recommendations.

Does this not seem a logical or plausible benefit to the manufacturers?

And, no offense to you, but I'll trust engineers on this, rather than techs. The engineers are working with current data and test results, while techs are working with anecdotal evidence and opinion, which is often outdated.
My first counter to this statement would be Manufacturers consist of a whole more than engineers. They WILL go against their engineers' optimal recommendations if they deem a cost benefit worthy of overriding "optimal" in lieu of "profitable" within a margin of acceptability.

To illustrate the point, here's a difference of ZF, the manufacturer of BMW's transmissions in my vehicles, recommending an interval 50k miles sooner than BMW. I am interested in hearing your opinion on this.

ZF 6HP & 8HP Automatic Transmissions
Here at FCP Euro, we have an extremely close relationship with ZF, who is the supplier of 6HP and 8HP transmissions to BMW. BMW rates these transmissions for a "lifetime fill," however, through our channels at ZF and speaking with the engineers of those transmissions, we've learned that the transmissions are tested to 100,000 miles with an "acceptable rate of failure" on the original fill. 100,000 miles is BMW's definition of what a "lifetime fill" and that's passed the extended warranty and "good-will" repair limit, meaning a failure after that is no longer BMW's responsibility. In the case of the 6HP/8HP, ZF actually has a published service interval for those transmissions which completely contradicts BMW's service information with an interval of 8 years/80,000km (~50,000 miles). This information supersedes BMW's "lifetime fill" rating.
https://blog.fcpeuro.com/bmw-lifetime-transmission-fluid-isnt-lifetime
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You state this as though I'm factually incorrect. Do you have some inside knowledge of these decisions the manufacturers make?
Please describe to me how I "stated it as though you're factually incorrect". I said "it seems", which indicates it is my opinion. I'm stating it as if I believe your logic is flawed, and simply disagree with your conclusions. I don't have any inside knowledge, but I do have deductive abilities.
We aren't talking 3000 mile oil changes here....nor motor oil. That said, our motor oil, by law, is recycled. I'm unclear how my oil I'm turning over to my local auto parts store is making its way into lakes/stream/etc. I was under the impression it's reused as other sources of fuel through that recycling process. Do you change your own oil?
Lubricating oils are somewhat similar and should all be recycled, so there is some equivalency there. Just because the law says it should be recycled doesn't mean it is - the quote I referenced says only 70% is collected after use, which means 30% (34.5 million gallons) is not recycled. Your oil (and mine) is not specifically the issue, since we recycle and are part of the 70%.

As to possible owners "never looking up service frequency"...the OEMs like BMW are providing maintenance plans as a way of reducing maintenance costs up front which is something buyers are considering when buying their vehicles. In their research they look into total cost of ownership. It's a fairly common metric savvy buyers are looking into. I'm a little surprised to hear you suggest no one does it...that's why we have long term reviews of vehicles...your suggestion makes me question you experience if I'm being honest.

Now, with the OEMs paying for maintenance costs, do you suppose there might be some long term reliability sacrificed to reduce those costs?
"The OEMs" are not all paying for maintenance costs. Some do, but many don't. The subject here is Ford, and they do not.

Bottom line for me is that I believe auto makers are rational actors who make decisions based on their own self-interest. The days of planned obsolescence are decades removed, and people place a high premium on vehicles that last. Recommending longer service intervals than optimal would be stupid and work against the brand in the long-term, and I don't believe auto makers behave in this way. Your worldview is apparently different.

Here's a great article that summarizes many of the opinions of the folks that specialize in aftermarket BMW repair. http://bavarianmachine.com/lifetime-isnt-long-think/
After reading that, I understand more why you have your opinions. I have no doubt the author was a wonderful mechanic, but he passed away in 2010, so the article was written at least 12 years ago and bears little relevance to today. He's speaking of cars that are two or three generations prior to now.
 
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I know the general public doesn't have an understanding of equipment, and because of this, they're scared and willing to bet on the suppliers to lead them.

I wish the individuals in this forum the best with their mach e experience. I know how I'm gonna be servicing mine. Will keep you updated
 

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There could be some break-in material in the oil, but I would still consider that a bit of a defect, manufacturing is a lot more precise than it used to be. An early change to get that flushed out may not be a bad idea, but after that the intervals should be extremely long, since there are no combustion products getting to the oils.

But instead of arguing about it, the answer would be for someone to change the gearbox fluids at 5-10k, and then get an oil analysis done to see what wear compounds are in the oil from any break-in, and what the viscosity and additive blends are doing. That would tell you whether it was needed or not. I’ll contribute $20 to the analysis cost if someone wants to pull the samples.
 

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In looking at the maintenance schedule, unless I missed something, I see only change cabin air filter( if equipped ha ha) every 20k miles. Otherwise transmission fluid at 150k, coolant at 200k. Not likely I would have the car that long.
 


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The “logic” I’m seeing here is mind boggling. To claim that an auto manufacturer would specify a service interval that would lead to premature vehicle failure, just so they can sell another vehicle is laughable at best. If you follow the manufacturers recommended service schedule, and the vehicle dies an early death, are you going to purchase that vehicles replacement from the same manufacturer? Seriously?

Manufacturers have a vested interest in you being a satisfied customer.
 
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The “logic” I’m seeing here is mind boggling. To claim that an auto manufacturer would specify a service interval that would lead to premature vehicle failure, just so they can sell another vehicle is laughable at best. If you follow the manufacturers recommended service schedule, and the vehicle dies an early death, are you going to purchase that vehicles replacement from the same manufacturer? Seriously?

Manufacturers have a vested interest in you being a satisfied customer.
While I don't believe it to be a factor here, what you're claiming as laughable logic has a name and a fairly large presence in engineering with the exact goal being what you described. Planned obsolescence.

Do you have a theory as to the reason ZF would recommend a replacement interval at least half as long as BMW does for the ZF manufactured transmissions?
 

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While I don't believe it to be a factor here, what you're claiming as laughable logic has a name and a fairly large presence in engineering with the exact goal being what you described. Planned obsolescence.

Do you have a theory as to the reason ZF would recommend a replacement interval at least half as long as BMW does for the ZF manufactured transmissions?
Clearly you have issues with understanding words. I said premature.
 
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Clearly you have issues with understanding words. I said premature.
Trying to be condescending while being wrong really isn't a good look.

Premature failure is what planned obsolescence is, in concept. I would have assumed you to know this as an electrician since planned obsolescence started with the Phoebus Cartel and light bulbs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

"In economics and industrial design, planned obsolescence (also called built-in obsolescence or premature obsolescence) is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain pre-determined period of time upon which it decrementally functions or suddenly ceases to function, or might be perceived as unfashionable."

But that's not what I believe to be at play here. Nor did I ever mention that was a motivation here (this was a strawman). Auto manufacturers use features to obsolete older models as I've come to understand it. One "feature" could be lower cost of maintenance.


Now, back to the ZF recommendation vs BMW recommendation for maintenance schedule..
Did you have a response to my question?
 
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Being a professional maintenance and repair technician handling everything from 2 stroke gas, 4 stroke gas and propane, as well as medium duty diesel and heavy duty diesel engines ranging from highway, construction and mining equipment. Replacing differentials, transmissions, transfer cases, means I've been changing the oil in all these.

I've seen the same thing happen over and over again, break in periods for any gear case. Bevel, planet, spiral, spur, worm, they all have break in periods. Because bearings have protective coatings to prevent corrosion during warehousing. Hardened steel wears into specific contact patterns that there engineered for, shedding the protective layer. Even heavy equipment manufacturers ask customers to change oil in any gear set after the first 500 hours. Because they're customers are spending 10x or 100x more on there equipment then you and I are.

These automakers are willing to shift the costs as much as possible without them being held liable. I'm sure we can all get away with not changing the gear oils until 150,000 miles, oil is such great quality now. But there is a reason why I see 50,000 hours on original equipment we maintain up in remote mine locations in the Canadian Arctic. For reference, most construction companies in urban areas buy new equipment at 10,000 hours. About when the engine needs replacing.
 
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@Vanilla-gorilla what's been your experience with Planetary gear sets? Sandy's video highlighted that Ford's using a planetary gear set for the reduction transmission vs an offset design like the Kona. Think that will be more reliable and/or easier on the fluid?
 
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@Vanilla-gorilla what's been your experience with Planetary gear sets? Sandy's video highlighted that Ford's using a planetary gear set for the reduction transmission vs an offset design like the Kona. Think that will be more reliable and/or easier on the fluid?

There's nothing stronger then a planetary. It's a series of Heli-cut gears in constant mesh. 1 drive gear in the middle, spiral cut, surrounded by 3 gears transferring the turning motion into the ring gear. It's perfectly balanced, meaning bearing life is excellent. Basically, no chance of sheering teeth because there's always like... 18 teeth or so making contact with one another to share the load.

The planetary, if oil is never changed will overheat and break material off taking bearings and teeth.

It's the CV shaft and wheel bearings (hub) that will be getting replaced probably around 150,000 miles im guessing. Pretty common.

Suspension bushings and arms, as well as steering components around 150,000 miles too, maybe less considering the weight of the vehicle. We have traditional sedan type steering and suspension so it's gonna be cheaper then a BMW, but we don't have the handling they offer
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