The Death of the Gas Station.

[AliRafiee]

the only time I ever drove an ICE vehicle (and I drove many, including hacking for two decades) to 0% was my used VW beetle, purchased after your uncle disowned me, BECAUSE THE PREVIOUS OWNER CONVENIENTLY NEGLECTED TO TELL ME THE FUEL GAGE WAS not accurate- an eighth of a tank was empty.
Illogical to even approach 0%.

I went to zero in my Camaro back in 96. It didn’t have a low fuel light. And I forgot how much gas I had.
Before that was my truck. Luckily I had enough momentum to get off the freeway and roll right in front of the pump.

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[woody]

I went to zero in my Camaro back in 96. It didn’t have a low fuel light. And I forgot how much gas I had.
Before that was my truck. Luckily I had enough momentum to get off the freeway and roll right in front of the pump.

if you can't be good be lucky.
Always had enough $ for petrol. Took no chances. My father would take chances, but I never really understood his reasoning. Especially if I was the one walking for gasoline.

 

[Old_Norm]

I am not comparing today's 100kWh battery to 200kWh battery 20 years from now. I am comparing the 2 batteries at the same time. 20 years from now the cost relationship between the 2 battery sizes will be the same as it is now. Moore's law will not change that.

incidentally, I am not sure why you switched from discussing batteries to motors.

OK, at the same time.
Previously you said, " Doubling battery capacity will more than double the battery weight. It will more than double the battery cost." This company doubled the capacity of their batteries without doubling the weight or cost. If they can do that today imagine what 20 years of research, testing and development will provide.
10 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, California Mode $22,000
5 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, Standard Model $14,500
Glad I could clear that up for you.

 

[Mach1E]

OK, at the same time.
Previously you said, " Doubling battery capacity will more than double the battery weight. It will more than double the battery cost." This company doubled the capacity of their batteries without doubling the weight or cost. If they can do that today imagine what 20 years of research, testing and development will provide.
10 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, California Mode $22,000
5 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, Standard Model $14,500
Glad I could clear that up for you.

All this means is they are overcharging for the smaller battery.

But the COST (read as cost to manufacture) is still going to be about double for the 10 kWh vs 5 kWh.

You’re talking about selling price. Not the same thing as cost.

It shouldn’t take dozens of posts and multiple pages to understand that a battery twice the size costs twice as much, takes up double the space and weighs double.

The above statement was true in 2013, 2024 and likely will be true in 2034.

 

[Old_Norm]

All this means is they are overcharging for the smaller battery.

But the COST (read as cost to manufacture) is still going to be about double for the 10 kWh vs 5 kWh.

You’re talking about selling price. Not the same thing as cost.

It shouldn’t take dozens of posts and multiple pages to understand that a battery twice the size costs twice as much, takes up double the space and weighs double.

The above statement was true in 2013, 2024 and likely will be true in 2034.

Oh please, your semantic gymnastics is laughable. You make up stuff and expect people to take it as fact. You have absolutely no proof that the manufacturer is overcharging for the smaller battery. There are other manufactures who are selling 5kWh batteries for more. Is everyone overcharging? And what proof do you have that the cost to manufacturing is going to be double? One shred of evidence for that please.

"It shouldn’t take dozens of posts and multiple pages to understand that a battery twice the size costs twice as much, takes up double the space and weighs double."

Who on earth said doubling the size of the battery wouldn't take up twice the space? It wasn't me. But I've shown you that you do not have to double the price or the size of a battery to double the capacity. I understand it is hard to lose a debate but making stuff up out of thin air is pathetic.

OK, here's your assignment.
1. Prove the manufacturer is overcharging for the smaller battery.
2. Explain why if the cost to manufacturer the 10 kWh battery is double that of the 5 kWh battery the manufacturer doesn't charge double the 5kWh price for the 10kWh battery.
3.Provide any evidence that the cost of manufacturing the 10kWh battery is double that of the 5kWh battery.

If you can't complete the assignment you've failed.

 

[Mach1E]

Oh please, your semantic gymnastics is laughable. You make up stuff and expect people to take it as fact. You have absolutely no proof that the manufacturer is overcharging for the smaller battery. There are other manufactures who are selling 5kWh batteries for more. Is everyone overcharging? And what proof do you have that the cost to manufacturing is going to be double? One shred of evidence for that please.

"It shouldn’t take dozens of posts and multiple pages to understand that a battery twice the size costs twice as much, takes up double the space and weighs double."

Who on earth said doubling the size of the battery wouldn't take up twice the space? It wasn't me. But I've shown you that you do not have to double the price or the size of a battery to double the capacity. I understand it is hard to lose a debate but making stuff up out of thin air is pathetic.

OK, here's your assignment.
1. Prove the manufacturer is overcharging for the smaller battery.
2. Explain why if the cost to manufacturer the 10 kWh battery is double that of the 5 kWh battery the manufacturer doesn't charge double the 5kWh price for the 10kWh battery.
3.Provide any evidence that the cost of manufacturing the 10kWh battery is double that of the 5kWh battery.

If you can't complete the assignment you've failed.

It takes twice the materials and labor.

Where I’m from that costs double.

You are waaaaaay overcomplicating this simple statement. Do you really need evidence and proof that twice as much “stuff” costs twice as much??

Just because McDonalds charges $2 for one cheeseburger and $3 when you buy two doesn’t mean the cost to make that 2nd one is less.

 

[shutterbug]

OK, at the same time.
Previously you said, " Doubling battery capacity will more than double the battery weight. It will more than double the battery cost." This company doubled the capacity of their batteries without doubling the weight or cost. If they can do that today imagine what 20 years of research, testing and development will provide.
10 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, California Mode $22,000
5 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, Standard Model $14,500
Glad I could clear that up for you.

These 2 systems include inverter, battery modules, cabinet and other components. Not just battery modules. Many of these things are identical for both systems. I find it interesting also that while total weight of the larger system is 38% more, the price is increased by 52%.

 

[Old_Norm]

These 2 systems include inverter, battery modules, cabinet and other components. Not just battery modules. Many of these things are identical for both systems. I find it interesting also that while total weight of the larger system is 38% more, the price is increased by 52%.

That's it?

 

[dtbaker61]

I can do the math and concluded that it costs more to fuel my mme at many of the DCFC stations that have recently jacked up their prices than my previous car that got 40 mpg.

I believe the 'old' reports were done using national average cost for electricity and average cost / gallon of regular at retail rate, assuming 90% of electric miles driven will be charged at homes overnight.... since 80% of vehicles are driven <50miles/day from what I recall. Not using DCFC rates which are market driven. Also taking into account the effective milage using the same type of vehicle.... i.e. 5-passenger SUV in our case with the MME; gasoline equiv might get around 20-25 mpg ?

DCFC prices are market driven.... first by investors to recover the cost of installing the station, then competition if there are nearby stations. On my last trip I saw rates around $.45/kwhr in cities , and as high as $.63 on one stretch of highway where there was no other choice for 80 miles in either direction.

The cost to install a single 200kw dispenser without Federal grants is right around $200k, plus dedicated transformer and switchgear on the utility side. Does anybody know what it costs to install a single gas pump and tank at a small rural gas station ?

 

[Old_Norm]

It takes twice the materials and labor.

Where I’m from that costs double.

You are waaaaaay overcomplicating this simple statement. Do you really need evidence and proof that twice as much “stuff” costs twice as much??

Just because McDonalds charges $2 for one cheeseburger and $3 when you buy two doesn’t mean the cost to make that 2nd one is less.

There you go again.

It takes twice the materials and labor.

Where I’m from that costs double.

You are waaaaaay overcomplicating this simple statement. Do you really need evidence and proof that twice as much “stuff” costs twice as much??

Just because McDonalds charges $2 for one cheeseburger and $3 when you buy two doesn’t mean the cost to make that 2nd one is less.

What is with you and facts? Making them up is lazy at best and dishonest at worst. The 5 kWh battery weighs 394 pounds and the 10kWh battery weighs 543 pounds. How on earth do you equate that to double the materials and double the labor? Of course you just pulled that out of thin air again.

And who said buying two of something makes the second one less expensive? And who is talking about buying two of the same thing? Are you OK? Do you need help? You seem divorced from reality. Give up man, you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[Old_Norm]

The cost to install a single 200kw dispenser without Federal grants is right around $200k, plus dedicated transformer and switchgear on the utility side. Does anybody know what it costs to install a single gas pump and tank at a small rural gas station ?

Partial answer:
"The average cost of a gas station fuel pump ranges from $16 - $21K. It ranges because of many available options such as digital screens, the ability to dispense multiple fuels, secure credit card technology, etc. The average cost to install a gas pump ranges from $2,500 - $3,000 per dispenser."

 

[dtbaker61]

Partial answer:
"The average cost of a gas station fuel pump ranges from $16 - $21K. It ranges because of many available options such as digital screens, the ability to dispense multiple fuels, secure credit card technology, etc. The average cost to install a gas pump ranges from $2,500 - $3,000 per dispenser."

and to design, permit, install a tank ? I'll bet the total is pretty close to $200k per tank+dispenser

my question is just to point out that an existing gas station *should* be able to decommission gasoline dispensers one by one, and swap in DCFC dispensers as their market shifts if they are in an area where there is some demand. Even small towns probably need at least one DCFC for tourism, BEV school buses, delivery vehicles (amazon & UPS) and refueling remote ranch/farm vehicles that come to town and need to charge before headed back.

the good news is that rural DCFC doesn't even need 3-phase -480v any more... there are 'boost chargers' with builin battery buffers that load up at 30kw on regular split-phase power, and then fast charge at up to 200kw from the buffer.... perfect for 'low volume' sites.

I would imagine that 'some' stations won't have the volume to support more than one dispenser, and 'many' in suburban areas may close down completely if they are in residential areas where people have garages and easy access to home charging.

 

[dtbaker61]

And who said buying two of something makes the second one less expensive? And who is talking about buying two of the same thing?

ok, guys, back to your corners.... Norm, you and @Mach1E are talking apples and oranges. He's talking 'costs' to produce, and you are talking 'cost' to consumers.

....and BOTH of you are way off the OP topic

 

[Old_Norm]

ok, guys, back to your corners.... Norm, you and @Mach1E are talking apples and oranges. He's talking 'costs' to produce, and you are talking 'cost' to consumers.

....and BOTH of you are way off the OP topic

Thanks for blowing the whistle but no, I'm right on target. Remember the post that started all this?
Shutterbug said,
" Doubling battery capacity will more than double the battery weight. It will more than double the battery cost." I provide real world examples to dispute that claim.
10 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, California Mode $22,000
5 kWh Sonnen Eco Smart Battery Storage System, Standard Model $14,500
Shutterbug mentioned costs. The conversation before his post was about what consumers would pay for larger batteries not what they cost to manufacture. Mach1E introduced manufacturing costs. Mach1E also introduces many suppositions and presents them as facts e.g. "...They are overcharging for the smaller battery." You should be calling a technical on him.

Besides, he's just trolling now.

 

[Old_Norm]

and to design, permit, install a tank ? I'll bet the total is pretty close to $200k per tank+dispenser

my question is just to point out that an existing gas station *should* be able to decommission gasoline dispensers one by one, and swap in DCFC dispensers as their market shifts if they are in an area where there is some demand. Even small towns probably need at least one DCFC for tourism, BEV school buses, delivery vehicles (amazon & UPS) and refueling remote ranch/farm vehicles that come to town and need to charge before headed back.

the good news is that rural DCFC doesn't even need 3-phase -480v any more... there are 'boost chargers' with builin battery buffers that load up at 30kw on regular split-phase power, and then fast charge at up to 200kw from the buffer.... perfect for 'low volume' sites.

I would imagine that 'some' stations won't have the volume to support more than one dispenser, and 'many' in suburban areas may close down completely if they are in residential areas where people have garages and easy access to home charging.

And there will probably be a hefty tax write off for stations switching. But invariably, some stations will go out of business. Imagine all the disruption in the smelting industry when we switched from the copper age to the bronze age.

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