HELP! Ford not honoring warranty with 311 miles on car

[Mach1E]

Yes, I'm in that profession. Most all the time the disputes are not settled in court, that is why there is specifity to the language so interpretation is minimized. It is why the Mangnuson-Moss Act was put into law, to ensure manufacturer warranties were not ambigious regarding coverage.

Again, if Ford's vehicle warranty was based on use of only Ford-branded home L2 EVSE to charge their EV, the warranty language would have to clearly and specifically state that. The section of the warranty I cited is the applicable language related to the EV charging issue under discussion. Use of non-Ford-branded replacement parts was not pertinent to the discussion. In fact, as I also pointed out, the warranty actually does not prohibit use of non-Ford-branded parts for repair and maintenance.

It’s been a few pages, so I’ll post the exact language again-

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...-E-Warranty-version-2_frdwa_EN-US_06_2021.pdf

From page 14:
“The new vehicle warranty does not cover damage caused by: the installation or use of any non-Ford branded part or any part or software………if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail…..examples include but are not limited to…..”

Could this include a non-Ford branded charger if it causes the Ford parts to fail?

Hopefully Ford will clarify. But the way I read “ANY,” that seems pretty all-inclusive.

And no, unlike what you stated above, it does not have to specifically list every thing that’s not allowed. That’s why they use the language “any” and “include but are not limited to.”

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[Ford Motor Company]

It’s been a few pages, so I’ll post the exact language again-

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...-E-Warranty-version-2_frdwa_EN-US_06_2021.pdf

From page 14:
“The new vehicle warranty does not cover damage caused by: the installation or use of any non-Ford branded part or any part or software………if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail…..examples include but are not limited to…..”

Could this include a non-Ford branded charger if it causes the Ford parts to fail?

Hopefully Ford will clarify. But the way I read “ANY,” that seems pretty all-inclusive.

And no, unlike what you stated above, it does not have to specifically list every thing that’s not allowed. That’s why they use the language “any” and “include but are not limited to.”

TLDR; Using a third party EVSE will not invalidate your warranty.

The team validated the following for me, guided by vehicle and charger warranty terms.

WHAT IS NOT COVERED
Ford shall not be liable for costs, damages, malfunction, or repairs incurred as a result of, due to, or from abnormal operating conditions (including exposure to acid, chemical fumes, metallic dust, or extreme temperatures), accident, abuse, damage, disaster, misuse, unauthorized alteration, or repair, improper connection with peripherals, electrical fault or utility surge, installation by anyone other than a licensed electrician, or if the Ford Home Charging Product was not installed, operated, or maintained in compliance with the Product’s associated instructions such as but not limited to, the User Guides, Installation Manuals, and Operations Manuals, This warranty does not cover labor costs for product repair or replacement.

In simple terms: As long as a third-party part (including an EVSE) does not directly cause damage, your vehicle warranty is valid.

 

[Mach1E]

Okay, one last time... (I was waiting for you to write what you posted above...)

The language you cite is under the warranty section entitled, Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification. You cite, "installation or use of any non-Ford branded part..." The L2 home ESVE charger is not used as a vehicle part* with the intent of alteration or modification of the vehicle, so the language you cite does not apply to the claim by the dealership that the OP's non-Ford-branded charger damaged the vehicle.

The language I cited (in the same Ford BEV warranty document) is from the section entitled: WHAT IS NOT COVERED UNDER THE NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY? Damage Caused By:
"• the use of incompatible charging devices or methods"

So, the language in the warranty document that applies directly to the topic of damages caused by improper charging is what I cited and is what is applicable and material to the issue the OP is having with the dealership. That language DOES NOT state the Ford vehicle can only be charged using a Ford-branded charging device and use of any other non-Ford-branded charging device will void the new vehicle warranty (i.e. deny a warranty claim). If the warranty language were to state, "• the use of non-Ford-branded charging devices or methods", then the dealership (and Ford) could claim the damage is not covered by the new vehicle warranty.

I, as well as a few other members in this thread, have tried to explain it to you that the language you cite is not material to the topic. To further prove it to you, the warranty states in the section: WHAT REPLACEMENT PARTS SHOULD I USE?
"Ford Motor Company recommends that you use genuine Ford replacement parts. However, when you are having non-warranty work performed on your vehicle, you may choose to use non-Ford parts. If you decide to use non-Ford parts, be sure they are equivalent to Ford parts in performance, quality, and durability. If you use replacement parts that are not equivalent to Ford parts, your vehicle’s systems may not work as effectively, and you may jeopardize your warranty coverage. So, as I wrote previously, the new vehicle warranty does allow use of non-Ford-branded parts for service and maintenance.

I hope this is clear to you now.

* i.e. an item in the bill of material used to manufacture and assemble the automobile.
**Bolded text used for emphasis purposes.

You liked the Ford Motor company post above, but did you completely ignore the last line?

It agrees with exactly what I have been saying all along!!

“In simple terms: As long as a third-party part (like a charger) does not directly cause damage, your vehicle warranty is valid.”

Which means if the third-party part (like a charger) directly causes damage, your claim could be denied!

I’ve been repeating this exact same line for pages now and it’s confirmed by Ford directly.

 

[Mach1E]

LOL. Ford's Official Account (person) is being as imprecise as you are regarding the use of the word "part", and it is why you are confused. The response from the Official Ford Account refers to the charger as "a product" (i.e. "Ford Home Charging Product").

My responses and reading of the warranty language are unassailable.

He literally defines the word “part” as “like a charger.”

How you interpret things (and how I did) are completely irrelevant now because Ford gave us the official answer.

And yes, Ford said the same thing I’ve been saying for pages now. If a charger causes damage, your claim could be denied. If the charger doesn’t directly cause damage, your warranty is valid.

If you disagree, argue with Ford.

 

[Mach1E]

Read what the Ford "team" wrote to the Offical Ford Account Respondant, which is a direct citation from the warranty FOR THE CHARGER (i.e not the vehicle). Nowhere in the Team's language did they use the word "part". They used the words "peripheral" and "product".

You really have a reading comprehension problem. Ford's Offical Account response did not address the issue under discussion, which is the validity of the dealership's position that the warranty claim is denied on the basis that the OP used a non-Ford- branded charger to charge his MME and it caused the damage.

You do not know what you are talking about and you cannot correctly read and understand warranty terms and conditions.

This seems pretty straightforward to me:

“In simple terms: As long as a third-party part (including an EVSE) does not directly cause damage, your vehicle warranty is valid.”

How can you possibly translate this differently?

What do you think happens if a third party part (including an EVSE) causes damage?

These are the exact words from the official Ford account. We asked them for a direct answer to the question at hand and they gave an official and direct response.

It’s ok if you don’t like the response. But it’s very straightforward. Not sure why you are doubling down on this. We asked them to answer and they did. We don’t need to interpret the warranty language because they did it for us. Case closed.

 

[Space_Pony]

HI Mike. This is interesting. The VIN ending 2814 was the one hit by lightning while charging that was totaled by Ford and the insurance company. The replacement RALLY is the car currently at the dealer. They have had it for 3 weeks. The VIN ends in2603

So, you've had two MME's with major electrical issues? If so, I can see why Ford is apprehensive regarding your warranty claims. Has anybody from Ford requested to examine your EVSE setup?

 

[Jeff-NoVA]

So, you've had two MME's with major electrical issues? If so, I can see why Ford is apprehensive regarding your warranty claims. Has anybody from Ford requested to examine your EVSE setup?

In fairness, OP said his first Mach E was struck by lightning. Taking that at face value, that's just bad luck/act of [angry] God.

 

[Mach1E]

Since you insist. Let's break down the Ford Account post. I'll color code it and comment to the sections, so you can easily (hopefully) understand.


TLDR; Using a third party EVSE will not invalidate your warranty. - this is the statement the OP was wanting to get from FoMoCo (i.e. Ford Corporate), which says use of a non-Ford-branded EVSE does not void the new car warranty.

The team validated the following for me, guided by vehicle and charger warranty terms.

WHAT IS NOT COVERED
Ford shall not be liable for costs, damages, malfunction, or repairs incurred as a result of, due to, or from abnormal operating conditions (including exposure to acid, chemical fumes, metallic dust, or extreme temperatures), accident, abuse, damage, disaster, misuse, unauthorized alteration, or repair, improper connection with peripherals, electrical fault or utility surge, installation by anyone other than a licensed electrician, or if the Ford Home Charging Product was not installed, operated, or maintained in compliance with the Product’s associated instructions such as but not limited to, the User Guides, Installation Manuals, and Operations Manuals, This warranty does not cover labor costs for product repair or replacement. - this is an excerpt from the Ford brand EVSE home charger warranty language. It specifically deals with damages to the charger. This language has nothing to do with the new vehicle warranty. This language is unrelated to the topic under discussion, which is the OP's denied warranty claim about his MME being bricked at just 315 miles. This language does not support the Offical Ford Account statement above in green font; it is an entirely different subject. So the Offical Ford Account was errant in posting the language and trying to connect it to the OP's topic of discussion.

In simple terms: As long as a third-party part (including an EVSE) does not directly cause damage, your vehicle warranty is valid. - In this statement, the Official Ford Account misuses the word "part". In fact, if you correctly parse the wording, the Official Ford Account is saying two separate things. He is saying (a) use of 3rd-party parts to maintain and repair a Ford vehicle do not void the new car warranty, and (b) nor does use of a 3rd-party EVSE void the new car warranty. Those two statements are consistent with the language in the new vehicle warranty.
To state one last time, a home EVSE is a separate, independent device from an electric vehicle and is not a part (i.e. component) used in the manufacture of the automobile, which is why it carries a separate, standalone charger warranty.

So, you and the Official Ford Account are conflating the two independent warranties for the MME (i.e. new vehicle warranty) and for the EVSE (i.e. charger warranty). Both you and the Offical Ford Account are wrapped around the same axle and neither understand what you are reading or writing about.

Ah, so the “official ford account doesn’t understand what they’re writing about.”

This is where I leave you.

Once again you are looking at the wrong section of the warranty. Here is the one that matters to this discussion-
https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...-E-Warranty-version-2_frdwa_EN-US_06_2021.pdf

From page 14:
“The new vehicle warranty does not cover damage caused by: the installation or use of any non-Ford branded part or any part or software………if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail…..examples include but are not limited to…..”

And in that short list of “parts” is even “cellular phones.” Not sure how a cell phone can damage your car, but it’s definitely not an “installed part.”

Hopefully people reading this won’t take your advice and possibly make a costly mistake.

Please, anyone reading this, don’t assume a 3rd party device that causes damage to your car will automatically be covered under warranty. It won’t. It says it won’t in the warranty language and the official Ford account backed up that same claim.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a bike rack, an aftermarket suspension, a roof rack, or a charger. Ford doesn’t cover damage caused by 3rd party devices.

The good news? It’s not very common and even if damage occurs, they have to prove the damage was caused by the 3rd party devices and not a fault of the vehicle itself.

 

[Mach1E]

But what you are missing in your reading of that language is it is under the section of the warranty regarding "Alterations and Modifications". I explained that to you a few posts before this one. The new car warranty expressly addresses use of chargers and charging methods under the section "What is not covered". In that section the language states the warranty does not cover damages caused by "incompatible charging equipment and methods".

This is why I have repeatedly said you don't know how to read warranty language. You are incorrecty applying language from the wrong section of the new car warranty. The language "installation of non-Ford branded parts is not applicable to the OP's issue of his denied warranty claim. The charger is not installed in the vehicle. The charger is not a part used to manufacture the vehicle. The charger is not a part used to alter or modify the vehicle.

You are just being dense; hopefully on purpose.

In addition to incompatible chargers (a line item thing) it states ANY part that causes damage including but not limited to cellular phones……. Is not covered.

It doesn’t get any more loosely defined than “any part.”

The two sections we are discussing are not mutually exclusive.

Explain to me how damage caused by a cell phone isn’t covered but damage caused directly by a third party charger would be.

A cell phone isn’t installed in a car either. And it doesn’t just say “installation.” It says “installation OR USE.”

When we asked Ford for an official response, they said the same thing I’ve been saying all along. You are ignoring the language “any part” and ignoring the language “use” and ignoring the official response from Ford.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

In addition

You guys are talking past each other. As someone who has a phd in doing just that, it’s easy to recognize. A more pragmatic approach would be to question exactly how an EVSE could damage a car. Make it a hypothetical as there’s a real person, a real car, and a real problem here.

As of yet there’s no evidence presented that the EVSE did damage the car. Absent that proof, the question of warranty coverage is moot. The dealer made a self serving statement to avoid working on the car. That much is stunningly obvious.

 

[Mach1E]

You guys are talking past each other. As someone who has a phd in doing just that, it’s easy to recognize. A more pragmatic approach would be to question exactly how an EVSE could damage a car. Make it a hypothetical as there’s a real person, a real car, and a real problem here.

As of yet there’s no evidence presented that the EVSE did damage the car. Absent that proof, the question of warranty coverage is moot. The dealer made a self serving to avoid working on the car. That much is stunningly obvious.

We don’t think the OP’s car was damaged by his charger. Just that the dealership thought it was and thus initially refused the warranty claim. (This means the dealership ALSO believes the same thing about the warranty that I’ve been saying). And dealers get paid for doing warranty work. Not sure why they’d want to lie about the rules to deny a claim.

We actually did talk about whether or not a charger could cause damage pages ago and I posted another thread where a couple people had fried pins from a shorted connection and the dealership (similarly) refused to cover it under warranty.

In the end though, the actual answer to this question as to whether or not this could result in a denied warranty claim matters for future people in the same situation.

It also may impact whether people choose to buy one of the Ford chargers or go with a different brand.

But even if it can damage the car, it’s super rare it seems. And even with cell phones being called out by name in the warranty language, it’s not going to stop us from using them in the car.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

We don’t think the OP’s car was damaged by his charger

I understood that. The discussion is not uninteresting though.

Just that the dealership thought it was and thus initially refused the warranty claim

Having dealt with an intransigent dealer over my HVBJB and glass recall, I strongly disagree here. The dealer doesn’t want to do warranty work. That’s why they said what they did. Easy out, go away, or give us cash money. Warranty work is a pain for many dealers. The OP needs to nope out of there as soon as he realistically can. There are good dealers — this isn’t one. Dealers like this sell Rivians, Teslas, and Lucids. Good Ford dealers sell Fords.

Any change of heart the dealer had, any at all, is 100% from @Ford Motor Company, his coworkers and their bosses making the dealer very uncomfortable. Trust me on this one. (Famous last words).

In any event, carry on.

 

[Mach1E]

Cell phones are called out by name because the manufacturer can't be expected to make their infotainment system compatible with every brand and model of cell phone. If that were the case, if an owner's cell phone did not integrate with the infotainment system (in this case Sync 4 for example), under a warranty claim, the owner could force Ford to rewrite the infotainment software to accommodate some off brand phone or a phone that has some application in it that makes it not work properly with Sync 4. The last part about an app on a phone is key as to why the warranty non-coverage of cell phones is in the warranty section under "Damage caused by Alteration and Modification".

Further, the subsection "Damage Caused by Alteration and Modification" exists so Ford can avoid paying for warranty claims when an owner goes into a vehicle module with Forscan and change the factory settings in the software or adds code to the factory software. The clause also prevents owners from modifying or altering the physical vehicle with aftermarket (non-Ford) parts and making a warranty claim caused by a non-approved part. The subsection expressly mentions alterations and modifications related to off-road use.

That’s an interesting theory about cell phones, but how would that equal “damage caused by” a cell phone?

I understand that not every phone will connect to the car, but that wouldn’t equal damage.

I believe that section of damage caused by any part that causes damage is so they can deny a claim if literally anything external causes damage to the car.

Which again, makes perfect sense. Why would a manufacturer pay for a repair caused by an external source??

The section also covers off road parts. It’s kind of an “all encompassing catch all.” Installation or use of anything…. and then they give some examples like cell phones and off-road suspensions.

 

[Mach1E]

Just so people understand why dealerships deny warranty claims, they are incentivised by the manufacturer to do so. Manufacturers rate dealerships on how well they avoid warranty claims. Some of the incentives are better hold back rates, financing terms for inventory, better choices on inventory selection, to name a few. It is also true that manufacturers set low "book rates" for warranty repairs where there is little to no margin for performing warranty work.

I would agree that there are some both lazy dealers and those that just don’t want to do work.

But in this case they are using the wording of the warranty as the excuse.

At this point, i’m just going to submit this exact question to Ford corporate directly and see what they say.

It’s their warranty language after all.

I will ask them “If I use a Tesla 240v home charger to charge my car daily and it causes damage to my Mach E, will I still be covered for those damages under my new vehicle warranty?”

If you think I should ask the question differently, let me know how you would word it.

This was the response I got from FordPass chat-

“The installation or use of any aftermarket product will not necessarily void the New Vehicle Limited Warranty or Ford Protect Extended Servicecoverage. However, if the aftermarket product fails or causes another part to fail, the cost of the repair and any related damage(s) are not covered by your warranty. Visit this help article to learn more.

”

And once again they’re talking about “installation or use.” It’s the use that applies here.

 

[Space_Pony]

I would agree that there are some both lazy dealers and those that just don’t want to do work.

But in this case they are using the wording of the warranty as the excuse.

At this point, i’m just going to submit this exact question to Ford corporate directly and see what they say.

It’s their warranty language after all.

I will ask them “If I use a Tesla 240v home charger to charge my car daily and it causes damage to my Mach E, will I still be covered for those damages under my new vehicle warranty?”

If you think I should ask the question differently, let me know how you would word it.

This was the response I got from FordPass chat-

“The installation or use of any aftermarket product will not necessarily void the New Vehicle Limited Warranty or Ford Protect Extended Servicecoverage. However, if the aftermarket product fails or causes another part to fail, the cost of the repair and any related damage(s) are not covered by your warranty. Visit this help article to learn more.

”

And once again they’re talking about “installation or use.” It’s the use that applies here.

Tom/State of Charge made a lot of reviews of numerous EVSE's and I have never heard of any objections from Ford.

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