Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[JoeDimwit]

A better charge network will make BEVs “not as bad” for road trips.

It won’t make them “best.”

To be best they must:
1. Have the longest range
2. Refuel in the most places
3. Refuel for the least money
4. Refuel in the fastest time

And the title for those go to a PHeV. 3 is the only debatable one, depends on the weather and DC charging costs.

BEVs have a very long way to go to become best for road trips.

By that logic, a motorcycle is the best road trip vehicle.

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[Mach1E]

By that logic, a motorcycle is the best road trip vehicle.

If you’re looking to get somewhere the fastest for the least money…….. they are.

But we were comparing cars to cars. Throwing motorcycles, planes, trains or walking is illogical.

 

[dml105]

This problem isn't going to get any better anytime soon. That is the issue. We are going to run out of capacity and then have people getting into fistfights over stupid things like hogging charging spaces.

You keep saying that, but where is your data?

Did I just read in this thread that 1 in 6 cars in Palo Alto is an EV? That's HUGE adoption!

Clearly there must be lines at the charge stations a la the 1970s oil crisis. No?

The market will fill the need. It always does.

 

[Mach1E]

You keep saying that, but where is your data?

Did I just read in this thread that 1 in 6 cars in Palo Alto is an EV? That's HUGE adoption!

Clearly there must be lines at the charge stations a la the 1970s oil crisis. No?

The market will fill the need. It always does.

What data do you need?

Try going to a charger on a holiday weekend in California. And it’s been a problem for years:

2016:
www.electrek.co/2016/12/27/tesla-supercharger-wait-time-barstow/amp/

“Lines of 20 to 30 cars were reported throughout the day yesterday.”

2019:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/tesla-supercharger-station-videos-reveal-ev-obstacle-2019-12?amp

4 months ago:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/24/tesl...eak-hours-help-alleviate-holiday-traffic/amp/

 

[mkhuffman]

You keep saying that, but where is your data?

Did I just read in this thread that 1 in 6 cars in Palo Alto is an EV? That's HUGE adoption!

Clearly there must be lines at the charge stations a la the 1970s oil crisis. No?

The market will fill the need. It always does.

I mostly agree with you, and I am only expressing my opinion based on what I have seen and with my own experience traveling around the VA, DC and NC areas. I see no new capacity being built where I go. And because there is no true free market in electricity supply, I am highly skeptical the government will move fast enough to allow free people to add capacity as quickly as we will need it. Of course my prediction could be wrong, and the government could magically become an enabler instead of a barrier, but I am sticking with my prediction that capacity constraints will become a serious issue in the next year or two.

BTW - EV adoption in one small CA town is not the same as EV adoption across the entire state. And for around town driving, all anyone needs is to charge at home. I am referring to capacity to use a car outside of your local driving distance. Like when I go to my office 140 miles away from my house. Or go visit my mom and dad who live 245 miles from my house. In those situations I must rely on the public infrastructure, and it is on the verge of overload today. I have seen the videos of Teslas lined up for blocks waiting for a supercharger. Next up - a mile long line of MMEs, etrons and others waiting for a EA charger. (See @Mach1E's post - thanks man!)

 

[Vulnox]

What data do you need?

Try going to a charger on a holiday weekend in California. And it’s been a problem for years:

2016:
www.electrek.co/2016/12/27/tesla-supercharger-wait-time-barstow/amp/

“Lines of 20 to 30 cars were reported throughout the day yesterday.”

2019:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/tesla-supercharger-station-videos-reveal-ev-obstacle-2019-12?amp

4 months ago:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/24/tesl...eak-hours-help-alleviate-holiday-traffic/amp/

While those are certainly issues, I think it glosses over that these types of issues can be present now with ICE vehicles, I suggest hopping over to your local Costco filling station, especially on a weekend, and check out those lines.

Granted even a line three times as long at a Costco will move faster than the line at a SuperCharger, the main reason that Costco line exists to begin with is those people can't get gas at home, coupled with Costco usually being less expensive and having better fuel (Top Tier).

So even if those few stories exist, it isn't the norm for most owners and even people that do road trips. Channels like Out of Spec Motoring who do cross country road trips all the time have almost never run into a situation where all the stalls were full.

Plus, as I started to get to earlier, EV owners have the option to "fill up" at home, every day. So i don't need to make a weekly visit to Costco and wait in line.

The amount of time, cumulatively, that I would save with an F-150 Lightning over my current F-150 PowerBoost, which at 24+ MPG isn't the worst truck out there for fuel mileage, would completely wash away the once or twice a year I might have a long line at a charger if traveling during the holidays. Easily. No question.

 

[Red Baron]

Please Note. This is from Fox News. They have a penchant for.....twisting the truth to suit their viewers. Since the lawmakers of a certain party get big donations from big oil that is what they want to push rather than EV's. I am not bashing a particular party. I used to belong to that particular party until recent events changed my point of view.

Joining the collection of conflicting terms (oxymorons) such as jumbo shrimp, cafeteria food, postal service, there is the best example of an oxymoron- Fox News

 

[mkhuffman]

While those are certainly issues, I think it glosses over that these types of issues can be present now with ICE vehicles, I suggest hopping over to your local Costco filling station, especially on a weekend, and check out those lines.

Granted even a line three times as long at a Costco will move faster than the line at a SuperCharger, the main reason that Costco line exists to begin with is those people can't get gas at home, coupled with Costco usually being less expensive and having better fuel (Top Tier).

So even if those few stories exist, it isn't the norm for most owners and even people that do road trips. Channels like Out of Spec Motoring who do cross country road trips all the time have almost never run into a situation where all the stalls were full.

Plus, as I started to get to earlier, EV owners have the option to "fill up" at home, every day. So i don't need to make a weekly visit to Costco and wait in line.

The amount of time, cumulatively, that I would save with an F-150 Lightning over my current F-150 PowerBoost, which at 24+ MPG isn't the worst truck out there for fuel mileage, would completely wash away the once or twice a year I might have a long line at a charger if traveling during the holidays. Easily. No question.

If all you do is travel around your local area, the capacity constraints will never impact you. I want to use my car as a real car that can take me to work and take me to see my parents. If I cannot do that, then why do I have it? I will drive my wife's ICE to go to work and see my parents. What a waste of $62,000, IMO.

 

[Red Baron]

I 100% believe in capitalism and the FREE market. However, this market has been distorted and it is debatable whether or not it is truly free when government is providing incentives and penalties to influence private behavior.

Regardless, if the market happened to be free, I agree it would sort itself out. In the meantime, we are getting flooded with EVs partly due to government incentives and we will run out of sufficient public charging spaces (because of government regulations that make it really hard to add capacity). I am sure of it. Will it eventually be corrected? I think so. As long as government gets out of the way, that is.



I don't think it is arbitrary at all. People working in offices can move their cars. People traveling from Dulles to Dallas cannot. People who park in spaces just because they got there first, and feel like they have a right to sit there even though they are not using the space for its intended use, are jerks. I could use stronger language, but children might be reading.

In the end, I guess it will only change when there are penalties for being inconsiderate and hogging the charging space. The only enforcement for many destination chargers are for the owners to ticket or tow the offenders. It would be nice if all "free" chargers required a credit card to initiate the charge, and then started billing the card once the charging stopped. That would be very cool. But most destination chargers do not have a billing mechanism. At least those I have seen anyway.



Yes, I agree with this. If you don't need the charge, don't park in the space. That is the basic rule. However, we cannot judge that easily. We can judge a fully charged car easily though. I can see the charger is no longer supplying a charge - it is black and white. I cannot determine if a 50% charge is sufficient to get that car home. So it makes sense to use the charging state as the guide: if you are fully charged, move your f-ing car to another space so someone else can get a charge. Simple. Otherwise, I put a nasty note on your car.

There may be another option. Make the charger cable long enough so that you can can have 4-6 parking spaces within reach of the charger. So, if the car connected to the charger has finished charging, just park in one of the other spaces, remove the cable from the “charged” car and plus into your car.

 

[mkhuffman]

There may be another option. Make the charger cable long enough so that you can can have 4-6 parking spaces within reach of the charger. So, if the car connected to the charger has finished charging, just park in one of the other spaces, remove the cable from the “charged” car and plus into your car.

I parked next to the last EV charging space, next to a Tesla that was fully charged. I unplugged that a-hole and connected my car. I was able to charge all day until around 4:00 PM when the slacker got off work and saw I had unplugged him. Out of spite, he unplugged me and left the cable laying on the ground next to my car.

In other words, he was going to let his car sit there all day fully charged regardless of whether or not he needed the charge. And he still thought he was wronged even though I was still charging when he unplugged me. What king of person is so selfish they think they have a right to hog a charger even if they don't need it?

 

[KevinS]

If all you do is travel around your local area, the capacity constraints will never impact you. I want to use my car as a real car that can take me to work and take me to see my parents. If I cannot do that, then why do I have it? I will drive my wife's ICE to go to work and see my parents. What a waste of $62,000, IMO.

I don't know if a 140 mile commute to work represents most people's situation. You may have answered your own question.

 

[mkhuffman]

I don't know if a 140 mile commute to work represents most people's situation. You may have answered your own question.

Nice. Well, that kind of proves that EVs are not ready to replace ICE, right?

 

[mkhuffman]

My daughter drives a PHEV but lives in a country with very expensive gas so she tries to keep her car charged. She has a note that she puts in the window of her car acknowledging that and telling people if they have an EV and need the charge that they can unplug her. She also includes her phone number in case they want to call her. Seems like a courteous way to approach the issue.

I wish more people were like your daughter.

 

[KevinS]

Nice. Well, that kind of proves that EVs are not ready to replace ICE, right?

Perhaps for you; I've only needed to charge away from home twice since getting my car in October. I rarely travel more than 100 miles in a day, and it's usually more like 15.

 

[dml105]

What data do you need?

Try going to a charger on a holiday weekend in California. And it’s been a problem for years:

2016:
www.electrek.co/2016/12/27/tesla-supercharger-wait-time-barstow/amp/

“Lines of 20 to 30 cars were reported throughout the day yesterday.”

2019:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/tesla-supercharger-station-videos-reveal-ev-obstacle-2019-12?amp

4 months ago:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/24/tesl...eak-hours-help-alleviate-holiday-traffic/amp/

Thanks. That IS data.

But compare to ICE, and it's basically the same. I've waited for gas during thanksgiving travel. That's kind of expected, no?

What I'm seeing is huge adoption of local charging stations. The infrastructure is coming. The problems (as Mkhuffman agrees I think) is with long range travel because the DC fast charging infrastructure isn't there yet. I agree... yet. I want to go to the Outer Banks, but the closest DCFC is in Norfolk. Yikes! But do I think that's a long term problem? No. I think these holes will be filled.

Except in West Virginia. They're doing whatever they can to hold onto coal. (Silliness. EVs in or going through WV will be powered by coal.)

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