LG revised their cell specs (not to be confused with changed the cells)

[Hammered]

Preface, MME has e71 cells which denotes their ah as 71. e63 is the bolt's cell and is found in other applications. e78 is found in ID4 PDF documents attached.

I'd be curious to see that since LG has refined their specs on their cells if ford won't finally relax not only the 5 second limit, but the charging rate itself. I've found the original document on the e63 that indicate their charging rate is 1.5c up until around 80% SOC, as well as only only a 3% SOC degradation hit on allowing 45c charging. Furthermore the ID4 also has a version of the e cell, the e78. It's only a 3P arrangement vs the ER MME 4P. From the charging curves below we can see ford is being way overly conservative on the charging capabilities of the MME. I think it's time for Ford to really do the MME crowd a favor and unlock the true rated potential of the vehicles. It's the least amount of reward that can be given to us after tesla decided instead of advertising, they'd just drop the price floor out from under the EV market.

ID4 vs MME charge curve while retaining a 20% smaller batt using the same chemistry. The cell's warranty is better than fords, providing an 8 year 80% remaining capacity. They've got more than enough data already to move forward with it. I don't care if it's not even an OTA to avoid the bricks we've seen. Make it available in FDRS or a paid dealer service. @Ford Motor Company

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[silverelan]

Yes!! The MME’s charging times are painfully behind the competition’s. 2021 ID4 and Polestar 2 already have meaningfully improved their charging capabilities since owners first got their cars. Ford has not done the same and I really wish they’d shrink the 10-80% time from 45 minutes down to 35-38 mins. That’s still well behind the ID4 but gets us closer to Polestar.

https://www.teslarati.com/polestar-2-improved-charge-curve-still-lags-behind-tesla/amp/

https://electrek.co/2021/12/16/vws-...e-improves-quick-charge-time-by-nine-minutes/

 

[Mach-Lee]

Yes, Ford's battery charge curve and battery temp management is extremely conservative, to the point it lessens the product.

Ford only allows max 35ºC temps while DC charging, Tesla goes up to like 60ºC. Higher temps help improve charge acceptance and decrease thermal throttling. Ford should allow it to get up to 45ºC. Meanwhile, Ford allows 75 kW of regen when the battery is below freezing, vs. Tesla only allows like 30 kW to help prevent lithium plating battery degradation. So they are extremely conservative about some things, but almost careless about others, such as letting the pack charge while below 0ºC instead of heating it or limiting regen.

The other issue with the DC charging is the cable size, the DC cables are only 70 mm^2 so they cannot sustain more than about 100 kW continuous without overheating. However I think more performance can be extracted out of the cables, especially in cold weather.

I also think they should be able to get the 10-80% charge time down to about 36 minutes with existing hardware. That would be acceptable.

 

[silverelan]

Yes, Ford's battery charge curve and battery temp management is extremely conservative, to the point it lessens the product.

Ford only allows max 35ºC temps while DC charging, Tesla goes up to like 60ºC. Higher temps help improve charge acceptance and decrease thermal throttling. Ford should allow it to get up to 45ºC. Meanwhile, Ford allows 75 kW of regen when the battery is below freezing, vs. Tesla only allows like 30 kW to help prevent lithium plating battery degradation. So they are extremely conservative about some things, but almost careless about others, such as letting the pack charge while below 0ºC instead of heating it or limiting regen.

The other issue with the DC charging is the cable size, the DC cables are only 70 mm^2 so they cannot sustain more than about 100 kW continuous without overheating. However I think more performance can be extracted out of the cables, especially in cold weather.

I also think they should be able to get the 10-80% charge time down to about 36 minutes with existing hardware. That would be acceptable.

if the car just held 100kW, all the way to 80%, instead of sitting at 75-80kW after 20 minutes, then we’d cut an appreciable chunk of time off the DCFC experience.

 

[azerik]

Mine usually sits 100kW+ to 80%. Has since March ‘23. (But Az temps seldom under 50 degrees)

 

[silverelan]

Mine usually sits 100kW+ to 80%. Has since March ‘23. (But Az temps seldom under 50 degrees)

wait, what?

 

[Billyk24]

Mine usually sits 100kW+ to 80%. Has since March ‘23. (But Az temps seldom under 50 degrees)

Many of us would really like to see multiple photos and/or data points of such. Has the 2023 version had a change to the charging curve?

 

[voxel]

Ford only allows max 35ºC temps while DC charging, Tesla goes up to like 60ºC. Higher temps help improve charge acceptance and decrease thermal throttling. Ford should allow it to get up to 45ºC. Meanwhile, Ford allows 75 kW of regen when the battery is below freezing, vs. Tesla only allows like 30 kW to help prevent lithium plating battery degradation. So they are extremely conservative about some things, but almost careless about others, such as letting the pack charge while below 0ºC instead of heating it or limiting regen.

Tesla isn't the only one. Rivian basically disables regen under a certain temp but now the latest OTA has a Brake Assist feature that activates the physical breaks to simulate regen when regen isn't available due to conditions (cold or high SoC).

I personally wondered about cold battery and lithium plating. I thought more carmakers would take car and heat up the battery before charging or regen-ing.

 

[SWO]

Many of us would really like to see multiple photos and/or data points of such. Has the 2023 version had a change to the charging curve?

Maybe he meant average? I'm at or close to that 20-80%

 

[silverelan]

The only way I’m close to 100kW in the 70% range is if I plug in at like 45% or something.

 

[Mach1E]

Did someone mention relaxing the power limit?!

 

[dpnelson]

Yes, Ford's battery charge curve and battery temp management is extremely conservative, to the point it lessens the product.

Ford only allows max 35ºC temps while DC charging, Tesla goes up to like 60ºC. Higher temps help improve charge acceptance and decrease thermal throttling. Ford should allow it to get up to 45ºC. Meanwhile, Ford allows 75 kW of regen when the battery is below freezing, vs. Tesla only allows like 30 kW to help prevent lithium plating battery degradation. So they are extremely conservative about some things, but almost careless about others, such as letting the pack charge while below 0ºC instead of heating it or limiting regen.

The other issue with the DC charging is the cable size, the DC cables are only 70 mm^2 so they cannot sustain more than about 100 kW continuous without overheating. However I think more performance can be extracted out of the cables, especially in cold weather.

I also think they should be able to get the 10-80% charge time down to about 36 minutes with existing hardware. That would be acceptable.

Ford is advertising the Rally as charging 10-80 in 36 minutes. I'd be surprised if whatever they did to achieve that isn't carried across all extended range versions, at least for 2024 models.

 

[Billyk24]

Maybe he meant average? I'm at or close to that 20-80%

Maybe your posted data could be quicker than his. My early built job 1 2021 is under 100kW before 50% SOC.

Ford is advertising the Rally as charging 10-80 in 36 minutes. I'd be surprised if whatever they did to achieve that isn't carried across all extended range versions, at least for 2024 models.

Meaning an OTA update could/should exist for the rest of us.

 

[dpnelson]

Meaning an OTA update could/should exist for the rest of us.

Maybe. It's possible they made tweaks to the 2024 pack design to accommodate the Rally's increased output that also enable increased input.

 

[silverelan]

Maybe. It's possible they made tweaks to the 2024 pack design to accommodate the Rally's increased output that also enable increased input.

Chief Engineer Donna Dickson (engineers are tribal and have chiefs, who knew?) said that there are some hardware improvements on the Rally to improve charging times.

That said, there’s no technical reason I’ve heard that would prevent the 21-23 ER pack cars from knocking minutes off the charge times.

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