Hertz "Horror Show"

mkhuffman

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SOMEBODY hasn't been paying attention.

The Tesla price cuts did massive damage across the industry, not just rentals, but that's a great place to start. European rental fleets also dropped Tesla in the wake of the price drop. Ford and GM had to drastically scale back their EV development plans. And, just another example, the software company SAP was supplying Teslas as company cars for their employees. The price cuts hurt the residual value of their fleet so badly that they had to discontinue the policy.

Those price cuts were a stupid temper-tantrum response to the market. It may have stimulated sales for a few months but it wound up doing a lot of damage in the long term. I'm not even saying Tesla shouldn't have cut prices, or didn't have the right to, I'm saying cutting so deeply so quickly had a deeply disruptive effect on the whole industry.

Maybe the worst part, past the companies that were hurt by those cuts, EV owners suddenly saw their cars lose a ton of value and that's been poison for community goodwill. I think that erosion of good will has given EV critics/opponents a great opportunity to stick a wedge in peoples' overall willingness to adopt EVs.
I disagree with... everything. Price cuts are always better for the consumers and the industry. It's like complaining the prices at the grocery store are too low. Nobody does that. For good reason.
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DennisD

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I disagree with... everything. Price cuts are always better for the consumers and the industry. It's like complaining the prices at the grocery store are too low. Nobody does that. For good reason.
I grew up on a Farm and the analogy of food prices being low is somewhat misleading. Food prices are still artificially low. If you factored in the subsidies that Farmers get, the food prices are actually higher than people realize. In other words, many of the items that you are paying for at the store are only part of the price you pay. Include the higher tax that you pay indirectly to the Farmers would add up to higher than "what you see" prices.

Secondly, I don't know of anyone that purchases food and expects to sell them later at used prices? The EV's were handed a terrible blow from two fronts due to Tesla's new car price drops. Tesla is/was big enough to make the smaller EV companies fold and that practice has been used for years by the bigger box stores. Many times in the end, one enjoys the lower prices at first but then realizes (when it is too late) that it many times came with an unforeseen cost in the end. ;)

Be careful what you wish for.
 

Thunderbuck

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Road trips with EVs are absolutely more hassle than a gasoline car as it requires more time and planning and I am willing to die on this hill. And for the poorly informed, a bit risky even...
After two 1,000+ mile road trips in Model Ys from Hertz I completely disagree. Especially when Tesla enabled Hertz rentals to use the phone app. My trips were just as easy as they would have been in a gas car and considerably cheaper.
 

Thunderbuck

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We all know that operating an EV is different than ICE. You can’t just jump into an EV and intuitively know the controls or charging nuances. I test drove a Tesla Y and spent time trying to turn on the wipers instead of carefully driving the car. I had to pull over and call the salesman. Rental EV’s should only be rented to people familiar with EV’s.
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Yes, ALL of this will benefit when more of the public has experience with EVs and there's stronger overall literacy. I will also say there is very, very little support for newbie EV drivers from auto sales staff and car rental agents.

As true as this is, it's fixable.
 

stealthytolkien

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After two 1,000+ mile road trips in Model Ys from Hertz I completely disagree. Especially when Tesla enabled Hertz rentals to use the phone app. My trips were just as easy as they would have been in a gas car and considerably cheaper.
I will not dispute the "cheaper" part. EV drives are inherently cheaper than gas trips.

However, like I said above, they are more time consuming and require more planning than setting off on a road trip in a gas car. I am already dying on the hill so I will respectfully say - agree to disagree :)

1. Busy holidays - this is a corner case but I have experienced this myself - superchargers can get very busy and time is critical. There are almost NEVER lines at a gas station

2. Off-major highways / frigid weather - you will naturally wait longer to charge as your range will deplete quicker (fact) and you will need to charge above 80% to get to the next supercharging station. And this is kind of my point. When you are in an EV, it is always on your mind that you need to "make it to the next supercharger", this mindset is basically absent in a gas car. You are never "driving to your next gas station", you are driving to your destination. I will absolutely respect your point that it has gotten 1000 times better. The mindset IS changing, the infrastructure IS improving. But it is simply not where gasoline infrastructure is yet, not everywhere, and hence my stance to be a bit more biased toward gas cars when renting.
 


Gloff

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Has nothing to do with Musk. All to do with not understanding people don't want the hassle of using an EV as a rental car.
It did wipe value off their fleet though. Those units are factually less valuable today then they were prior to the Tesla price reduction.
 

azerik

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Resale was terrible for Polestar 2 back in summer of 22 way before the Tesla price cuts. Approximately 30-35% depreciation in less than a year. Tesla just looked at live MMR data and realized their new cars were $15K more than dealers were wanting to pay.

Hert'sz CEO mistake was Polestar 2 IMO. They probably lost more with those vehicles than Teslas.
Another one I'd happily give $15k for is a Polestar.
 

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I disagree with... everything. Price cuts are always better for the consumers and the industry. It's like complaining the prices at the grocery store are too low. Nobody does that. For good reason.

I grew up on a Farm and the analogy of food prices being low is somewhat misleading. Food prices are still artificially low. If you factored in the subsidies that Farmers get, the food prices are actually higher than people realize. In other words, many of the items that you are paying for at the store are only part of the price you pay. Include the higher tax that you pay indirectly to the Farmers would add up to higher than "what you see" prices.

Secondly, I don't know of anyone that purchases food and expects to sell them later at used prices? The EV's were handed a terrible blow from two fronts due to Tesla's new car price drops. Tesla is/was big enough to make the smaller EV companies fold and that practice has been used for years by the bigger box stores. Many times in the end, one enjoys the lower prices at first but then realizes (when it is too late) that it many times came with an unforeseen cost in the end. ;)

Be careful what you wish for.
@mkhuffman
Yes, price cuts are good for the consumer, they are not always good for the industry. Case in point made by @DennisD. To his point, there is a very real possibility that small EV makers will go out of business without a lot of capital or a buyout.

The quality of service declines, as well as innovation when prices are cut below sustainable levels. Tesla is now big enough, with enough brand recognition that these cuts cratered the used EV market. Good for consumers, bad for businesses that sell used EVs.

Tesla also controls a lot of the used Tesla market due to their ability add/remove options via software, that vertical integration gives them market advantage on both sides of the coin. They can buy used cars without features in the market, then upgrade them at very little cost and sell them above market rate used.

Further, EV demand is not down overall, there are more players in the market. Tesla knows this and knows it can use it's size to beat up on other manufactures that don't want the risk. Everyone is cutting back, this is exactly what Elon wants: short term profit cuts to get long term market share.
 
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DennisD

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Yeah, that SOMEBODY is not me. I've been an automotive industry junkie since before there was an internet. Yeah, I'm a Boomer. Lol.

In the franchise dealership sales model price adjustments are made at the dealership level via pricing incentives from the manufacturer. With Tesla's direct-to-consumer sales model, the pricing adjustments are directly applied to MSRP.

Tesla has no dealership real estate to store unsold inventory, so it has to drop MSRP to move inventory. That's the disadvantage of a direct-to-consumer sales model.

Hertz sold off its EV fleet because most people didn't want to deal with EV recharging. Hertz loosing its ass because of dropping EV values was a derived consequence to the primary business decision to rid the fleet of un-rentable inventory. Nothing to do with Musk.
Actually, that SOMEBODY may be you. ;)

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hertz-helped-turn-tesla-1-122321863.html

From linked article:

"In short, the declining value of the Tesla cars in Hertz’s fleet—a decline directly caused by Musk’s price cuts—has hit Hertz squarely in its profits.

The fact that this is happening to Hertz of all companies is ironic, as the rental agency is not just any customer of Musk."
 
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Thunderbuck

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Hertz sold off its EV fleet because most people didn't want to deal with EV recharging. Hertz loosing its ass because of dropping EV values was a derived consequence to the primary business decision to rid the fleet of un-rentable inventory. Nothing to do with Musk.
Not according to Hertz themselves. They were getting tolerable uptake from customers. They cut back their investment because of A) the precipitous decline in the residual value of their fleet after the price cuts and B) higher-than-expected service/repair costs because a lot of the customers were rideshare drivers who were abusing the cars.
 

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DennisD

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From the Yahoo article, "The tycoon had famously advised car buyers that it was “financially insane” to buy anything other than a Tesla, since his cars would actually appreciate in value."

Other than the super-abnormal situation brought on by COVID supply chain disorders between 2020 and early 2022, in the history of life, NO ulitarian automobile, especially fleet rental cars, appreciate in value. So any CEO who believed that to be possible or plausible is not well versed in the automotive business. And shouldn't have that CEO chair to sit in.

If the Agreement between Hertz and Tesla had terms that stated the residual value of Hertz's EV Tesla fleet at the time Hertz would off load its Tesla fleet and Tesla didn't hold to that condition of the order Agreement, then you could make a case that Hertz's crappy financial position is Musk's fault. If I was making such an Agreement with Tesla, where Musk said Hertz rental Teslas would appreciate in (future) value, then I'd have made that a term of the Agreement that Tesla had to sign up to. If Musk wouldn't sign up to such a term, then it falls into the "words are cheap" category.
Yet another reason you would never want to trust a man like snake oil salesman named Elon Musk.

Thanks for the heads up on that one. ;)
 

BMT1071

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I will not dispute the "cheaper" part. EV drives are inherently cheaper than gas trips.

However, like I said above, they are more time consuming and require more planning than setting off on a road trip in a gas car. I am already dying on the hill so I will respectfully say - agree to disagree :)

1. Busy holidays - this is a corner case but I have experienced this myself - superchargers can get very busy and time is critical. There are almost NEVER lines at a gas station

2. Off-major highways / frigid weather - you will naturally wait longer to charge as your range will deplete quicker (fact) and you will need to charge above 80% to get to the next supercharging station. And this is kind of my point. When you are in an EV, it is always on your mind that you need to "make it to the next supercharger", this mindset is basically absent in a gas car. You are never "driving to your next gas station", you are driving to your destination. I will absolutely respect your point that it has gotten 1000 times better. The mindset IS changing, the infrastructure IS improving. But it is simply not where gasoline infrastructure is yet, not everywhere, and hence my stance to be a bit more biased toward gas cars when renting.
You've never run into lines at a highway service area on a busy holiday weekend?? You must have never driven on the NYS Thruway. I've done it on I-90 every summer for the last couple of decades and almost never pull right up to the pump.

The "driving to the next gas station" concept is very real if you are on a road trip that will involve refueling. Especially if you are off major highways. This is probably a bit dependent on the region you are traveling in, but I promise you if you are out in the southwestern/western US and you go on a road trip without knowing where you are going to stop for gas you are gonna have a bad time.
 
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DennisD

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Trust is why contracts are written between businesses.
Oh no doubt Hertz's hands are not clean. I just can't believe they dealt with and trusted an obnoxious crazy man like Elon Musk.

Lesson learned. Never trust Elon.

Once again, thank you for pointing that out. ;)
 

stealthytolkien

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You've never run into lines at a highway service area on a busy holiday weekend?? You must have never driven on the NYS Thruway. I've done it on I-90 every summer for the last couple of decades and almost never pull right up to the pump.

The "driving to the next gas station" concept is very real if you are on a road trip that will involve refueling. Especially if you are off major highways. This is probably a bit dependent on the region you are traveling in, but I promise you if you are out in the southwestern/western US and you go on a road trip without knowing where you are going to stop for gas you are gonna have a bad time.
Good insight and examples. And to your last point then, if and when you’re on a terrain where even gas stations are hard to find, you are claiming that driving an EV is more convenient on such stretches? I don’t think you are.

And that’s kind of my point.

Imagining the WORST case scenarios on a long road trip when you’re strapped for time and going to be driving through middle of nowhere in bad weather and inclines and with a lot of luggage and people and babies, would you choose an EV over Gasoline (that you can literally siphon off a bit from another vehicle when everything else fails lol)
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