The depressing reality of buying an EV: Especially bad resale [ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS]

[bbhaag]

Yeah I agree. It's depressing. I spent $80,000 on a Ford EV just over a year and a half ago.
I know that vehicles are depreciating assets but holy shit bro........

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[Jerrytball]

Huh? Is depreciation new to you?

My 23 Grand Cherokee has depreciated as badly as my 22 MME. It hits overpriced problematic vehicles the worst.

New Tundra hybrids have horrible depreciation too and that’s due to the $10 K discounts offered by dealers on new ones and the engine recall. Sometimes depreciation is a good thing. I’m looking at 1-2 year old C8s that are now $20K less than new MSRP with sub 10K miles.

Look I never said I was shocked and depreciation is nothing new to me. I’ve owned 40 cars probably in my life. I’m just saying I would’ve thought a car that MSRP for $60,000.06 months later would at least sell for 32,000 not 30 or 16,000 that’s beyond ridiculous depreciation But I do understand that I do get it. I’m just like it’s ridiculous. Just like buying these G rides from Mercedes for 120,000 I wonder how much one of those is worth two years later.

And also, it’s got a lot to do with the times we’re in right now because I can tell you right now when I move to Mississippi in 2021 I had a 2019 RAV4 that I paid 31 I took it to the Toyota dealer here traded it in for a new Camry and they gave me 32 for the car, and that car had 25,000 miles on itso I don’t even understand that what happened on that deal but I didn’t complain Maybe because I bought the car in North Carolina heck, I don’t know before I came down here

 

[voxel]

Look I never said I was shocked and depreciation is nothing new to me. I’ve owned 40 cars probably in my life. I’m just saying I would’ve thought a car that MSRP for $60,000.06 months later would at least sell for 32,000 not 30 or 16,000 that’s beyond ridiculous depreciation But I do understand that I do get it. I’m just like it’s ridiculous. Just like buying these G rides from Mercedes for 120,000 I wonder how much one of those is worth two years later.

Corvette depreciation is brutal but the prices are low enough to tempt me. I visited Chevy dealers who said they sold dozens of C8s at $30K over MSRP and now they are worth $10-20K under MSRP after only a year or two.

And also, it’s got a lot to do with the times we’re in right now because I can tell you right now when I move to Mississippi in 2021 I had a 2019 RAV4 that I paid 31 I took it to the Toyota dealer here traded it in for a new Camry and they gave me 32 for the car, and that car had 25,000 miles on itso I don’t even understand that what happened on that deal but I didn’t complain Maybe because I bought the car in North Carolina heck, I don’t know before I came down here

You are talking about the pre-COVID era pricing before "higher margin, lower volume" (aka bigger profits) took over all carmakers. You also sold the car during the peak of used car shortages - when everything was overinflated like our M2 money supply (which the Fed tried to correct). Carmakers these days are happier with lower volume and higher margins because profits are actually better.

New refreshed model Toyotas today will depreciate badly - Tundras, Tacomas, Land Cruisers, etc... because they are so insanely overpriced. Who the heck is buy a 4-cylinder cloth seated 8.7" ground clearance with street tires Land Cruiser 1958 for $58K? Yikes. It's a mommy SUV priced like a premium off-roader.

Ford is the same. Broncos and Mach-Es both needed fat rebates to move. They jacked MSRPes in 2022 and got burnt.

Old school RAV4s, Camrys, etc. will probably depreciate less than the above cars because they were cheap and good value to begin with. I've always argued since late 2021 when I first got my MME... that these EVs were $15-20K overpriced compared to their gas equivalents. $59K for an MME Premium AWD ER is insane compared to a $50K 2021 Telluride SX - which is loaded up the wazoo with a HUD, Nappa leather, 360 camera, dual moonroofs, 3-rows, quieter, better suspension, etc. A new MME was always valued around the 40s to me. Same with the Model Y. Now the market has spoken.

 

[Jerrytball]

Corvette depreciation is brutal but the prices are low enough to tempt me. I visited Chevy dealers who said they sold dozens of C8s at $30K over MSRP and now they are worth $10-20K under MSRP after only a year or two.





You are talking about the pre-COVID era pricing before "higher margin, lower volume" (aka bigger profits) took over all carmakers. You also sold the car during the peak of used car shortages - when everything was overinflated like our M2 money supply (which the Fed tried to correct). Carmakers these days are happier with lower volume and higher margins because profits are actually better.

New refreshed model Toyotas today will depreciate badly - Tundras, Tacomas, Land Cruisers, etc... because they are so insanely overpriced. Who the heck is buy a 4-cylinder cloth seated 8.7" ground clearance with street tires Land Cruiser 1958 for $58K? Yikes. It's a mommy SUV priced like a premium off-roader.

Ford is the same. Broncos and Mach-Es both needed fat rebates to move. They jacked MSRPes in 2022 and got burnt.

Old school RAV4s, Camrys, etc. will probably depreciate less than the above cars because they were cheap and good value to begin with. I've always argued since late 2021 when I first got my MME... that these EVs were $15-20K overpriced compared to their gas equivalents. $59K for an MME Premium AWD ER is insane compared to a $50K 2021 Telluride SX - which is loaded up the wazoo with a HUD, Nappa leather, 360 camera, dual moonroofs, 3-rows, quieter, better suspension, etc. A new MME was always valued around the 40s to me. Same with the Model Y. Now the market has spoken.

Although I love the look at the Corvette because I’ve seen some of the newest Corvettes and Camaros and pick up trucks or whatever Chevy makes with their one headlight missing or a turn signal not working or a fog light out. They just can’t seem to fix that one problem that’s why I like the old 60s to 70s Chevrolet. Now, if I was looking something for distance, would that new Silverado pick up truck they have or the new equinox be the Best Buy I don’t even know how much those are selling for. But I do like that loaded out EV nine from Kia that thing does look really good but I’m sticking with my Mustang . I’d lose way too much and I’d have to backpedal and put this down and that down couldn’t even get a good lease anymore. I went into the Ford dealer the other day just to grab a quick free cup of coffee, lol, and I asked Roy I said don’t you guys have like it used to be where you could put down $2000 and a three year lease for like 245 a month no matter what kind of car it is and he laughed lol

 

[MrLoganRoss]

I really don’t understand the obsession about resale. Many people keep their cars for more than a few years. For them it’s a moot point.

If you want to change cars every few years, don’t buy, and instead lease. There again - resale becomes a moot point. Moreover, you may even make out better than an ICE vehicle when rebates and incentives for EVs are baked in.

For example, as long as you don’t make too much money, in WA state you get the benefit of the federal rebate plus up to 9k from the state. Plus the local utility gives people of limited means up to $2k for charger installation.

As others have mentioned, I know very few owners of ICE vehicles, who sell in the first 2 years and don’t lose their shirt.

 

[Norcolboulder]

I think PHEV has its place especially for folks who live in apartments or rentals and it is their single vehicle for transportation.
PHEV looks to be picking up in North America due to range anxiety and/or lack of EV charging infrastructure in rural areas. GM & Ford have pivoted to increase PHEV production. A 100-200km electric range PHEV would seriously affect BEV market share and pure play EV makers.

I don't dislike PHEVs if it means one less ICE. The problem as I read somewhere is that PHEV drivers don't have the same diligence to charge up the vehicles' small battery pack. This means the PHEV is actually less efficient than ICE.

In North America a reasonable 100 mile range ( all electric ) PHEV would be very successful IMO.But technology advancements are required and these battery advancements will also improve BEV range .

 

[Jerrytball]

I really don’t understand the obsession about resale. Many people keep their cars for more than a few years. For them it’s a moot point.

If you want to change cars every few years, don’t buy, and instead lease. There again - resale becomes a moot point. Moreover, you may even make out better than an ICE vehicle when rebates and incentives for EVs are baked in.

For example, as long as you don’t make too much money, in WA state you get the benefit of the federal rebate plus up to 9k from the state. Plus the local utility gives people of limited means up to $2k for charger installation.

As others have mentioned, I know very few owners of ICE vehicles, who sell in the first 2 years and don’t lose their shirt.

For me the tax credit when I bought my Mustang didn’t mean nothing to me because basically I knew there was nothing. I’m getting back, because like two months before I bought my car I had my taxes done and basically you have this exemption you have that exemption and this is zero you may not even have to file taxes next year so I know that credit does mean no good at all.

 

[rcechinel]

For me the tax credit when I bought my Mustang didn’t mean nothing to me because basically I knew there was nothing. I’m getting back, because like two months before I bought my car I had my taxes done and basically you have this exemption you have that exemption and this is zero you may not even have to file taxes next year so I know that credit does mean no good at all.

 

[MrLoganRoss]

For me the tax credit when I bought my Mustang didn’t mean nothing to me because basically I knew there was nothing. I’m getting back, because like two months before I bought my car I had my taxes done and basically you have this exemption you have that exemption and this is zero you may not even have to file taxes next year so I know that credit does mean no good at all.

Perhaps you bought your car a while back. The credit is point of sale, and for leases it’s up to the manufacturer to factor it in (with us overseeing the dealers who cheat sometimes). For my ‘24, I got a total of 6500 in rebates. Not the whole 7500, but it is something.

That’s another benefit of leasing. The tax credit is converted to a regular old rebate from the buyer’s perspective.

 

[Shepherd]

The facts:

1. Ford is losing a lot of money on every EV they sell. EV sales are down 20%, too.
2. Customers are seeing a massive depreciation on nearly every EV purchased.

There’s also the matter of political disinformation campaign against EVs. Funny how when Tesla was the only player, and owned by the darling of one side, EVs were visionary.

 

[RickMachE]

I understand the idea of amortizing a company's initial investment in a new vertical. However, as I cited previously, Ford's EV sales are down 20%. As a result, they're losing even more money per vehicle.

Facts, not fiction...

Electric Vehicle Sales Surge; Ford No. 2 EV Brand

Electric vehicle sales increased 61 percent in the second quarter with 23,957 sold and are up 72 percent for the year. With 44,180 total EVs sold for the first half of the year, Ford brand electric vehicles trail only Tesla.

Mustang Mach-E and F-150 Lightning are drawing customers from other brands; 62 percent of F-150 Lightning and 54 percent of Mustang Mach-E sales are new to Ford.

Mustang Mach-E sales rose 46 percent over last year and are up 58 percent through the first half of the year. Year-to-date sales represent Mustang Mach-E’s best performance since launch.

The Ford E-Transit was America’s best-selling electric van with total first half sales of 6,301, more than double the amount sold during the first half of 2023. During Q2, E-Transit sales were up 96 percent. This represents E-Transit’s best quarterly sales since its debut in 2022.

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/...ca/US/2024/07/q2sales/Q2 2024 Sales Final.pdf

Q1

Ford sold 20,223 EVs in Q1, making Ford America’s second best-selling EV brand behind Tesla for the quarter. Mustang Mach-E posted strong Q1 sales of 9,589 SUVs – up 77 percent over a year ago. America’s best-selling electric truck, the F-150 Lightning, had sales of 7,743 trucks, up 80 percent.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...it-set-records--q1-sales-top-industry--u.html

During the second quarter of 2024, Ford sold almost 24,000 all-electric vehicles—61% more than a year ago. With about 2,000 more sales, it would be a new record. The share of EVs increased to 4.7% from 2.9% in Q2 2023.

https://insideevs.com/news/725448/ford-us-ev-sales-june2024/

 

[lesz]

Corvette depreciation is brutal but the prices are low enough to tempt me. I visited Chevy dealers who said they sold dozens of C8s at $30K over MSRP and now they are worth $10-20K under MSRP after only a year or two.





You are talking about the pre-COVID era pricing before "higher margin, lower volume" (aka bigger profits) took over all carmakers. You also sold the car during the peak of used car shortages - when everything was overinflated like our M2 money supply (which the Fed tried to correct). Carmakers these days are happier with lower volume and higher margins because profits are actually better.

New refreshed model Toyotas today will depreciate badly - Tundras, Tacomas, Land Cruisers, etc... because they are so insanely overpriced. Who the heck is buy a 4-cylinder cloth seated 8.7" ground clearance with street tires Land Cruiser 1958 for $58K? Yikes. It's a mommy SUV priced like a premium off-roader.

Ford is the same. Broncos and Mach-Es both needed fat rebates to move. They jacked MSRPes in 2022 and got burnt.

Old school RAV4s, Camrys, etc. will probably depreciate less than the above cars because they were cheap and good value to begin with. I've always argued since late 2021 when I first got my MME... that these EVs were $15-20K overpriced compared to their gas equivalents. $59K for an MME Premium AWD ER is insane compared to a $50K 2021 Telluride SX - which is loaded up the wazoo with a HUD, Nappa leather, 360 camera, dual moonroofs, 3-rows, quieter, better suspension, etc. A new MME was always valued around the 40s to me. Same with the Model Y. Now the market has spoken.

I’ve had 5 Corvettes over the years., C4 through C7. They are among the most dependable cars I’ve owned. I always bought them used and let the previous owner take the bulk of the depreciation for me. I bought my 22 MMEGTPE because it’s quicker, easier to get in and out of, better interior, etc.

 

[rcechinel]

The cost of just manufacturing isn't that much per unit, and they are selling for more than that cost.

That's right. People don't understand the difference between gross margin and net margin.

 

[zvez]

Yeah, it's wild to me at this point that people are acting like PHEVs are some miracle solution. They are the worst of both worlds.

You get 50 miles of EV range, GREAT! "That's all I need 99% of the time!" Okay, so then a BEV is also right for you and you won't have to worry about oil changes, fuel preservation, buying gas, lugging around an engine you don't need 99% of the time by your own admission.

"But what about when I go on a trip? Now I have a gas engine and it takes 4.5 seconds to refuel!"

Alright fine, let's talk about your road trip. There isn't a PHEV out there that I have seen that doesn't have a small gas tank compared to its hybrid or pure ICE cousins. That doesn't make them inadequate, but you will still get ballpark BEV distance on most of their fuel tanks before you refill. You can say that at least your refill is faster, but even if you are speedy mcrefuel and don't need to stop and get food or anything else on this trip, you're talking about this 1% of your year usage for this one trip to maybe save 15 minutes every four hours or so.

So you lug around that gas engine all year for this one trip to save a little time. Time you will still lose throughout the year between oil changes and fuel ups, since PHEVs still run their engine and have to for maintenance cycles. I remember our PHEV that would start at least a couple times per week and run and warm up. Just burning gas to keep an engine and fuel system healthy we only need 1% of the year.

Hybrids are great, they still take a fuel tank hit but it's a lot smaller. If you are really terrified of BEVs then check out a hybrid. But PHEVs just make so little sense and work to their owners benefit in fewer cases than BEVs do. If you can't charge at home a PHEV is pointless. If you can, get a BEV. If your driving 99% of the year is mostly handled by 50 miles of range (and even then in winter it's usually a bit less, so better make sure!), then a BEV will be even better and leave you range to spare for when your day is more than 50 miles.

I swear people just get into the PHEV camp now because it seems like the rebel thing to do.

We owned PHEVs, Hybrids, BEVs, ICE, they definitely all have their pros and cons, but PHEV is only just above ICE in terms of real world ownership for anyone that really sits down and runs the numbers in how much you waste lugging that engine around.

I talked at length to the lead EV tech at my local dealer (his wife has owned a mach e since day one). He brought up great points about the downside of plug in evs. Chiefly they're overly complex in that they have to separate power systems (battery and gas). Making them harder for techs to work on and more potential for problems. And when you think about it, is it worth the premium to get a battery with 30-40 miles range?

WIfe and I were owned a gen 1 and gen 2 prius. The new prius is a great looking vehicle. I guess I don't understand why more emphasis hasn't been made for straight hybrids to ease the weaning away from ICE vehicles.

 

[rcechinel]

Let's talk total cost of ownership, what should be what matters for people, but the average person only thinks MSRP and resale value. In my comparison, I always buy or lease (depends on the deal) cars new and change cars every 4 years, that's my thing.

Average annual maintenance cost of a gas car by aarp: $1,475. Let's make it $600 because it's a new car and costs start to go higher only in the 4th year
My 23k miles ev: a cabin air filter (like $80, let's say it's $200 per year)
Savings for charging at home:
Avg mpg for a crossover - 24mpg
Cost 12k mile per year (avg $3 per gallon, it's more right now, but let's be nice) = $1500
Charging at home in GA - 12c per kwh. Avg consumption for me (spirited driving, including winter)=2.8 mi/kwh
Total electricity per year (kinda worst case, really) = $514

Cost of my mach-e in 2022
$61k loaded
-$1k Ford Options
-$7500 tax credit
-$8k profit by buying my Mercedes lease and selling to carvana (covid craziness)
Real Acquisition cost = $44,500
Estimated value if I sold at the end of my 4-year term ~$15k
Cost of amortization per year = $7,375
Cost of new tires = 1k for 1 change, 250 per year
+$200 maintenance
+250 tires
+514 electricity
TCO per year of my mach-e = $8,339

Let's now look into an equivalent ice car, comparing to my trim (premium er awd, which kinda equals to the second tier from the top fully loaded, let's say, a bmw x3):
Acquisition from bmw site typical model 2025 = $58k (before title and taxes, but not even going there)
Resale value of a 2021 model (could be a 2020, but I'm being nice to the ICE comparison) at carmax = $26k
Depreciation per year = $8,000
Maintenance costs = $600
Fuel costs = $1,500
Tires = $ 250

TCO per year for an X3 = $10,350

So, in my case, I SAVE $2,011 per year by driving the BEST CAR I'VE EVER OWNED. I smile every time I approach it and enter it.

And I still have the option to give the car back after 4 years as per my Ford Options agreement, if I'm underwater, saving even more.

So tell me again that an EV is a bad financial decision. Please.

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