Completely locked out 😭

[Mach-Lee]

Curious tho, when my car was dead dead, I was still able to open the Frunk with the jumpers and jump the car. Are you guys saying that with this new bug, you cannot do that? My 12V was below 8v and the Frunk cable still worked and I was able to charge up to bring to the dealer.

The 2023s have a different problem than you had. The frunk does not open with the jump leads because the 12V battery is not dead. It’s more like a communications glitch that prevents the door latch modules from being told to unlock. The unlock signal is not passed on, so then doors don’t unlock when they are supposed to.

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[garyd9]

You might not have noticed, but this issue is unique in that the 12v battery isn't dead. If the owner presses buttons on the fob, the lights flash and horns honk, but the doors don't unlock. The "bumper jumper" doesn't work, supposedly because the 12v battery isn't actually dead.

Dealerships are saying it's a battery fault, but how does the battery have enough juice to flash lights and honk a horn, but not enough juice to open the door?

@Mach-Lee You seem to have some association with Ford or a dealership....

In your opinion, if a car was brought in with these symptoms, would the dealership replace the battery even if the battery tested good?

In all the cases I've seen on this forum where the person posted the final resolution, the dealership did replace the battery. That suggests that the batteries really were bad!

That's making me think that perhaps the batteries are just on the threshold of being bad, but still have enough power to flash lights and honk the horn. So the RFA module (talks to the fob) is okay. The headlight module and whichever module talks to the horn are also okay. Which bus(es) are those modules on? (there's 9 busses in the car, right?) The battery _should_ still have enough power to unlock and actuate the door... but perhaps the _module_ that's responsible for that is failing (either because the module itself requires more power than the battery is providing, or that module is on a different bus and the bus message is failing.)

So the issue/root cause here might actually be a "marginal" battery...

If all this WAG-work is close to accurate, it leads to the question of why is this problem being seen in so many 2023's very recently, but none in 2021/2022's (which would have more marginal batteries than a 2023 or 2024)

 

[Mach-Lee]

I didn't know that was necessary. I will try turning it off for a couple of hours before checking, and will report back.

Yup, make sure you don’t open any doors before measuring, or walk up to it with a fob or PAAK phone because that will wake it up. You have to sneak up on it. If you hear clicking noises, then you woke it up and have to wait another 30 minutes to check.

 

[jamesphw]

Yup, make sure you don’t open any doors before measuring, or walk up to it with a fob or PAAK phone because that will wake it up. You have to sneak up on it. If you hear clicking noises, then you woke it up and have to wait another 30 minutes to check.

Sounds good, thanks for the advice.

I'll wear my camo hunting gear too so the car doesn't see me ?

 

[grein002]

I got that same update yesterday when we got to a restaurant for lunch. It said only 8 minutes to update and that you couldn't lock the car. When I got in the restaurant I was able to lock the car using ford pass. When we came out it was finished and no problems. I checked the 12V battery this morning and it was at 88%.
YMMV

YVMV...

 

[rreddy3]

@Mach-Lee You seem to have some association with Ford or a dealership....

In your opinion, if a car was brought in with these symptoms, would the dealership replace the battery even if the battery tested good?

In all the cases I've seen on this forum where the person posted the final resolution, the dealership did replace the battery. That suggests that the batteries really were bad!

That's making me think that perhaps the batteries are just on the threshold of being bad, but still have enough power to flash lights and honk the horn. So the RFA module (talks to the fob) is okay. The headlight module and whichever module talks to the horn are also okay. Which bus(es) are those modules on? (there's 9 busses in the car, right?) The battery _should_ still have enough power to unlock and actuate the door... but perhaps the _module_ that's responsible for that is failing (either because the module itself requires more power than the battery is providing, or that module is on a different bus and the bus message is failing.)

So the issue/root cause here might actually be a "marginal" battery...

If all this WAG-work is close to accurate, it leads to the question of why is this problem being seen in so many 2023's very recently, but none in 2021/2022's (which would have more marginal batteries than a 2023 or 2024)

Re: the model years … I wonder if more 23s sat around for months on end at dealers with no charging than did 21s/22s? It’s pretty obvious a lot of 23s languished until prices significantly dropped. I don’t know about the prior yesrs.

If the prior model years were “fresher” when placed in service their 12v batteries might have been in better shape at delivery than a 23, and likely would have been kept reasonably charged in normal use after being placed in service and potentially be in better health than the 12v battery of a MY 23 car.

I am drawing upon my understandings of comments Mach Lee has previously made. I will stipulate my understanding of his statements could be wrong.

 

[Mach-Lee]

@Mach-Lee You seem to have some association with Ford or a dealership....

In your opinion, if a car was brought in with these symptoms, would the dealership replace the battery even if the battery tested good?

In all the cases I've seen on this forum where the person posted the final resolution, the dealership did replace the battery. That suggests that the batteries really were bad!

That's making me think that perhaps the batteries are just on the threshold of being bad, but still have enough power to flash lights and honk the horn. So the RFA module (talks to the fob) is okay. The headlight module and whichever module talks to the horn are also okay. Which bus(es) are those modules on? (there's 9 busses in the car, right?) The battery _should_ still have enough power to unlock and actuate the door... but perhaps the _module_ that's responsible for that is failing (either because the module itself requires more power than the battery is providing, or that module is on a different bus and the bus message is failing.)

So the issue/root cause here might actually be a "marginal" battery...

If all this WAG-work is close to accurate, it leads to the question of why is this problem being seen in so many 2023's very recently, but none in 2021/2022's (which would have more marginal batteries than a 2023 or 2024)

This seems difficult to explain, but the 12V battery going dead is not the cause on 2023s. It’s an effect or byproduct of the glitch. Here’s a technical timeline of what I think happens, read carefully:

1. Owner previously received an OTA with the affected software (likely a GWM OTA).
2. Car is locked by owner
3. Random GWM? glitch occurs and shuts down CAN network communications
4. Owner tries to unlock and open door, but unlock signal cannot be transmitted on the CAN to the door latch modules.
5. Since door latch modules have not received an unlock signal, they don’t unlock or open.
6. BCM is still able to execute remote functions on its own hardware that don’t require network communication. This is why the lights flash and horn can honk in response to fob presses, the BCM is responsible for those aspects itself.
7. Owner tries to jump frunk leads, but the GFM will not open the frunk because the battery voltage is normal and not dead.
8. Since the owner cannot gain access, the car may be towed to a dealer.
9. Due to the network communication failure, some modules may not shut down fully and will create a 12V drain.
10. Also because of the network glitch, the BCM is not able to signal the SOBDMC to wake up the car and recharge the 12V battery. Therefore the 12V battery will slowly drain without being recharged.
11. Eventually the 12V battery will go COMPLETELY DEAD due to the drain. This may take a day or two from what I’m seeing.
12. Vehicle may sit an additional day or two on a dealer lot before it can be looked at.
13. Because the 12V battery was allowed to drain completely dead and was not immediately recharged, it is permanently damaged and will have significant capacity loss due to extensive sulfation.
14. At some point after the 12V battery has gone completely dead, someone tries the bumper leads again and is able to get the funk open (since the battery is actually dead now).
15. Dealer suspects a failing 12V battery, tests it, and it fails the test since it was allowed to drain completely dead.
16. Dealer replaces 12V battery thinking that was the original cause.
17. Because the 12V power was disconnected, the module that caused the glitch reboots and begins to function normally again. CAN communication is restored.
18. Car now functions completely normally, dealer tells customer the 12V battery was replaced and they assume that’s what caused it.
19. ???? Glitch happens again and cycle repeats ???? (hasn’t happened yet, but 12V reset might permanently solve the issue)

*The above is my educated hunch only, nothing has been confirmed from Ford

Again, the 12V battery was collateral damage from the glitch, not really a cause. Performing a 12V reset may prevent the glitch (also a hunch).

 

[garyd9]

*The above is my educated hunch only, nothing has been confirmed from Ford

Again, the 12V battery was collateral damage from the glitch, not really a cause. Performing a 12V reset may prevent the glitch (also a hunch).

Agreed that this is all just educated speculation and WAGs.

I'm taking from your message that the remote fob talks directly to the BCM module. I wasn't aware of that.

Which module controls electronically opening the frunk? Is that controlled by the BCM or another module? If it's controlled by the BCM then, in theory, the frunk could be opened from a fob IFF an owner had the proper fob programmed.

I don't remember if any owner who experienced this issue tried to unlock the car using the phone app. If so, and if the lights also flashed from that, it would suggest that communication between the TCU (cloud) and GWM (which is on an isolated ethernet wire) was working, and communication between the GWM and BCM was working (not sure which bus is GWM<>BCM.)

 

[Trax]

The 2023s have a different problem than you had. The frunk does not open with the jump leads because the 12V battery is not dead. It’s more like a communications glitch that prevents the door latch modules from being told to unlock. The unlock signal is not passed on, so then doors don’t unlock when they are supposed to.

Interesting. Also Im seeing a trend in this thread that it seems to also originate from the key fob entry. I wonder if it makes a difference that I NEVER use the fob, only the app and my phone?

 

[filequit]

Agreed that this is all just educated speculation and WAGs.

I'm taking from your message that the remote fob talks directly to the BCM module. I wasn't aware of that.

Which module controls electronically opening the frunk? Is that controlled by the BCM or another module? If it's controlled by the BCM then, in theory, the frunk could be opened from a fob IFF an owner had the proper fob programmed.

I don't remember if any owner who experienced this issue tried to unlock the car using the phone app. If so, and if the lights also flashed from that, it would suggest that communication between the TCU (cloud) and GWM (which is on an isolated ethernet wire) was working, and communication between the GWM and BCM was working (not sure which bus is GWM<>BCM.)

In my case a few weeks back, remote start and unlock with PaaK did not function when my '23 was in that state. FordPass showed it "frozen" as plugged in and at the last location it functioned properly until the dealer was able to replace LVB and GWM in my case.

 

[garyd9]

In my case a few weeks back, remote start and unlock with PaaK did not function when my '23 was in that state.

No lights or horn? But the lights/horn flashed with the fob? Did you by any chance try the frunk or open windows buttons on FordPass?

 

[filequit]

No lights or horn? But the lights/horn flashed with the fob? Did you by any chance try the frunk or open windows buttons on FordPass?

LIghts and horn functioned with the fob, any commands sent via FordPass PaaK (Bluetooth, windows, frunk) or TCU (remote start and door unlock, lock) just failed to send

 

[Gungrave223]

Agreed that this is all just educated speculation and WAGs.

I'm taking from your message that the remote fob talks directly to the BCM module. I wasn't aware of that.

Which module controls electronically opening the frunk? Is that controlled by the BCM or another module? If it's controlled by the BCM then, in theory, the frunk could be opened from a fob IFF an owner had the proper fob programmed.

I don't remember if any owner who experienced this issue tried to unlock the car using the phone app. If so, and if the lights also flashed from that, it would suggest that communication between the TCU (cloud) and GWM (which is on an isolated ethernet wire) was working, and communication between the GWM and BCM was working (not sure which bus is GWM<>BCM.)

I tried to unlock using the app but after cycling for a couple mins it fails... don't recall seeing the car light flashing either.

 

[rreddy3]

This seems difficult to explain, but the 12V battery going dead is not the cause on 2023s. It’s an effect or byproduct of the glitch. Here’s a technical timeline of what I think happens, read carefully:

1. Owner previously received an OTA with the affected software (likely a GWM OTA).
2. Car is locked by owner
3. Random GWM? glitch occurs and shuts down CAN network communications
4. Owner tries to unlock and open door, but unlock signal cannot be transmitted on the CAN to the door latch modules.
5. Since door latch modules have not received an unlock signal, they don’t unlock or open.
6. BCM is still able to execute remote functions on its own hardware that don’t require network communication. This is why the lights flash and horn can honk in response to fob presses, the BCM is responsible for those aspects itself.
7. Owner tries to jump frunk leads, but the GFM will not open the frunk because the battery voltage is normal and not dead.
8. Since the owner cannot gain access, the car may be towed to a dealer.
9. Due to the network communication failure, some modules may not shut down fully and will create a 12V drain.
10. Also because of the network glitch, the BCM is not able to signal the SOBDMC to wake up the car and recharge the 12V battery. Therefore the 12V battery will slowly drain without being recharged.
11. Eventually the 12V battery will go COMPLETELY DEAD due to the drain. This may take a day or two from what I’m seeing.
12. Vehicle may sit an additional day or two on a dealer lot before it can be looked at.
13. Because the 12V battery was allowed to drain completely dead and was not immediately recharged, it is permanently damaged and will have significant capacity loss due to extensive sulfation.
14. At some point after the 12V battery has gone completely dead, someone tries the bumper leads again and is able to get the funk open (since the battery is actually dead now).
15. Dealer suspects a failing 12V battery, tests it, and it fails the test since it was allowed to drain completely dead.
16. Dealer replaces 12V battery thinking that was the original cause.
17. Because the 12V power was disconnected, the module that caused the glitch reboots and begins to function normally again. CAN communication is restored.
18. Car now functions completely normally, dealer tells customer the 12V battery was replaced and they assume that’s what caused it.
19. ???? Glitch happens again and cycle repeats ???? (hasn’t happened yet, but 12V reset might permanently solve the issue)

*The above is my educated hunch only, nothing has been confirmed from Ford

Again, the 12V battery was collateral damage from the glitch, not really a cause. Performing a 12V reset may prevent the glitch (also a hunch).

If this issue is only affecting 23s presumably Ford is identifying OTAs that only went to 23s and trying to to identify a culprit.

Would you say the only certain way to avoid this problem is to turn off automatic updates until the solution to the problem is published by Ford?

 

[Gungrave223]

FYI, my service center also said the issue was the 12v... they replacement it and are about to delivery my 23 MME back to my house ?

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